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”Hear what the Spirit is saying to the Churches.”
<strike>Wannabe</strike> Newbie Anglican ^ | 8/31/2005 | Mark Marshall

Posted on 08/31/2005 12:46:51 PM PDT by sionnsar

It’s come to my attention that some Episcopal parishes are changing what they say after the scripture lessons. In the 1979 prayer book, for Holy Eucharist Rite II, “The Word of the Lord” is said with the people responding “Thanks be to God.”

There’s also the option of saying, “Here ends the Reading.”

But now some parishes are saying, “Hear what the Spirit is saying to the Churches” or a variant.

That sets off alarm bells with me, to put it nicely. Yes, I’m aware that’s a quote from Revelation. But it’s not an appropriate closure to a scripture lesson.

First, it comes across (to me at least) as a flowery attempt to avoid the authority of God’s Word. The parish leaders don’t want to announce scripture as the word of God, but simply saying “Here ends the Reading” isn’t good enough for them for some reason.

So they say something that makes no clear commitment about the authority of the scripture just said. “Hear what the Spirit is saying . . . “ could easily mean, “We don’t know how much of what we just read is from God, so listen real hard to figure out what God is really saying to us.”

And, frankly, ECUSA leaders have been blaming a lot of their revisionism on the Holy Spirit lately. This change goes right along with that. I for one think that is no coincidence.

Even if I'm being overly alarmist and paranoid (and I'm not), the bad messages this innovation sends, even if inadvertent, are good enough reasons to snuff it.

But, again, you can’t blame the 1979 prayer book for this – it’s not in there. I’ve been told it comes from Enriching Our Worship and is therefore authorized by ECUSA. Which brings up an important reason for having a prayer book liturgy, without an excess of alternative liturgies running amuck – quality control. And part of its quality control is that it disallows at least many hobby horses from entering parish worship. (Although the 1979 BCP, even on its own, certainly allows more hobby horses than more traditional prayer books.)

For example, I come from a Fundamentalist background. But when I do my lector duties, it’s not appropriate for me to say, “This is the God-breathed, plenary inspired, inerrant Word of the Lord.” And the REC Prayer Book would not allow it, and I would lose my Lector’s license if I kept it up. Instead, I can say, “This is the Word of the Lord.”

Similarly, someone in a church whose leadership thinks the Holy Spirit is saying all sorts of strange stuff to the churches should not be allowed to say, “Hear what the Spirit is saying to the churches.”

That’s not to mention that such liturgical innovations further separate a parish from the historic catholic church through the ages. I like traditional liturgy because it links a church with the saints of centuries past. Needless innovations fray those links.

In any case, this liturgical innovation is one hobby horse that should be shot.


TOPICS: Mainline Protestant
KEYWORDS: ecusa
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1 posted on 08/31/2005 12:46:52 PM PDT by sionnsar
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To: ahadams2; Fractal Trader; Zero Sum; anselmcantuar; Agrarian; coffeecup; Paridel; keilimon; ...
Traditional Anglican ping, continued in memory of its founder Arlin Adams.

FReepmail sionnsar if you want on or off this moderately high-volume ping list (typically 3-9 pings/day).
This list is pinged by sionnsar and newheart.

Resource for Traditional Anglicans: http://trad-anglican.faithweb.com

Humor: The Anglican Blue (by Huber)

Speak the truth in love. Eph 4:15

2 posted on 08/31/2005 12:47:25 PM PDT by sionnsar (†trad-anglican.faithweb.com† || (To Libs:) You are failing to celebrate MY diversity! || Iran Azadi)
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To: sionnsar

Oh, one of these days after my New Testament reading I'm going to say, "Here endeth the Epistle". It's a holdover from the 1928 BCP that's still in the 1979 BCP as an accepted variant. Of course, after coming back to the ECUSA after having been unchurched for about 30 years, I had a heck of a time not saying "very God of very God" during the Nicene Creed ....


3 posted on 08/31/2005 1:19:48 PM PDT by RonF
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To: RonF

Is it in the '79 as part of Rite I? We use the '28 so I am accustomed to saying "Here endeth the Epistle." (And the church responds, "Thanks be to God!", per their '79 experience.)


4 posted on 08/31/2005 1:23:19 PM PDT by sionnsar (†trad-anglican.faithweb.com† || (To Libs:) You are failing to celebrate MY diversity! || Iran Azadi)
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To: sionnsar

"Hear what the Spirit...." sound suspiciously similar to the United Church of Christ's "God is still speaking," campaign.

My parish has just begun using "The Word of the Lord" as a deliberate in-your-face against the revisionist sodomite agenda.


5 posted on 08/31/2005 1:32:39 PM PDT by lightman (The Office of the Keys should be exercised as some ministry needs to be exorcised.)
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To: sionnsar

"Here ends the Epistle" is an alternative form approved in Rite II, which is what we do, so I was wrong, a little. OTOH, "Here endeth the Epistle" is in fact an alternative form in Rite I.


6 posted on 08/31/2005 1:37:22 PM PDT by RonF
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To: sionnsar

If I were WRITING a liturgy or rite, or were part of a group authorized do so, I guess I would entertain the "hear what the Spirit ...." line. It's sort of provocative in a way, and in my opinion not intrinsically harmful.

But think about it. The Episcopal Church is a group which one may leave voluntarily. It has a prescribed method for establishing and revising its rites. And this method is part of the promulgated and easily obtainable Constitution and Canons of the group. It seems to me, therefore, if you join or remain in such a group, you make a commitment to abide by the rules, including the rules for changing the rules.

With me so far? Hang on.

If I make a statement in public and sign it in public and have the signature witnessed in public, with the witnesses signing that they saw me sign, AND IF that statement says that I will abide by the "doctrine, discipline, and worship" of the Episcopal Church, AND IF I THEN break my word, not over some high matter of conscience or great fear and threat but because I happen to like "hear what the SPirit is blah blah blah" more than I like "The word of the Lord", then it's a pretty safe bet that I am not to be trusted, that my word is worth nothing, and that, in setting my whim over the choice of the group I engaged to obey, I have put my SELF and my litle whims ahead of keeping my voluntary commitments.

No wonder the Episcopal Church has gone off the rails. The people, and espesially the clergy think that when they follow their fancies they are following God and they value their whims ahead of their promises.


7 posted on 08/31/2005 2:08:49 PM PDT by Mad Dawg (Allahu Fubar! (with apologies to Sheik Yerbouty))
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To: Mad Dawg
Um, you may not be aware of this but the author is not ECUSA. He's REC.

I don't recall any signed promises in ECUSA, either. I know other churches do that, and I believe the REC may be one of them.

8 posted on 08/31/2005 2:23:09 PM PDT by sionnsar (†trad-anglican.faithweb.com† || (To Libs:) You are failing to celebrate MY diversity! || Iran Azadi)
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To: RonF

To me, "Here ends the Epistle" would only make sense if you were reading a whole Epistle (and Corinthians is pretty long!) or a passage that happened to be at the end of one.


9 posted on 08/31/2005 2:34:18 PM PDT by Tax-chick (Learning to type is very important.)
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To: Tax-chick

Good point. But I remember from my youth that it was common for people to use that phrase if they were reading from anywhere in an Epistle. Perhaps it is or was understood to mean "Here endeth the Epistle reading." But you're right in that the way it reads, it's as if you've read the actual end of the Epistle.


10 posted on 08/31/2005 3:48:47 PM PDT by RonF
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To: RonF

It's clear enough what's intended, but the phrasing is a bit askew.


11 posted on 08/31/2005 5:18:59 PM PDT by Tax-chick (Learning to type is very important.)
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To: RonF

Oh, my Bill has just been elected Patrol Leader!


12 posted on 08/31/2005 5:19:26 PM PDT by Tax-chick (Learning to type is very important.)
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To: sionnsar
When you get ordained in ECUSA, you have to sign (or you did as late as 1977) a declaration of conformity and your signature is witnessed by two people. It's a big deal.

Except that nobody gives a hoot about what it says or means, unless some bishop's financial ox is gored.

This side of the Tiber feels purty good.
13 posted on 08/31/2005 5:56:57 PM PDT by Mad Dawg (Allahu Fubar! (with apologies to Sheik Yerbouty))
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To: Jeremiah Jr; the-ironically-named-proverbs2; Quix
”Hear what the Spirit is saying to the Churches.”

Art thou better than populous NO, that was situate among the rivers, that had the waters round about it, whose rampart was the sea, and her wall was from the sea?

14 posted on 08/31/2005 6:44:15 PM PDT by Thinkin' Gal (Wisely investing in quality tin foil wardrobe basics since 1998)
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To: Tax-chick
Congratulations! He'll need your support, of course. Peer leadership is the heart of Scouting. Too many parents put emphasis on merit badges, forgetting that putting effort into leadership is just as important if their son is to advance. Make sure he takes the time to plan for outings and Troop meetings.

His first resource is his Senior Patrol Leader. A BSA Troop has a definite chain of command, and he should use it. If his SPL is inexperienced, they should all be working with either the Scoutmaster or an Assistant that the SM has appointed for this. He should also get himself a copy of the Patrol Leader's Handbook (if the Troop didn't provide him with one) and read through it. There's also a link on the National web site that provides an intro to his responsibilities.

Your Troop should be running a Junior Leader Training course (which takes about 6 hours to run); there's an official syllabus and video tape that National puts out. If the Troop doesn't run it, talk to the SM and see if they can put it on. The Council may also run a training course, but that's usually during the summer.

The Patrol Leader is the most important position in a Troop. He's going to find it frustrating, since his peers may not understand the implications of electing a leader and may not want to treat him seriously when he tries to exert some leadership. Make sure he realizes that "follow me" works a lot better than "you go do that".

15 posted on 08/31/2005 7:18:53 PM PDT by RonF
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To: sionnsar
The New Zealand Anglicans use the phrase at the end of New Testament lections -- that phrase from Revelation that has so upset the REC writer.

I imagine that the ECUSA churches have borrowed it from the New Zealander Prayer Book.

16 posted on 08/31/2005 7:33:57 PM PDT by Siobhan (Catholic and furious.)
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To: Siobhan

Very interesting. Thanks!


17 posted on 08/31/2005 7:34:59 PM PDT by sionnsar (†trad-anglican.faithweb.com† || (To Libs:) You are failing to celebrate MY diversity! || Iran Azadi)
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To: sionnsar

I for one don't think the Spirit is any longer speaking to ECUSA, and hasn't done so for many years.


18 posted on 08/31/2005 7:38:09 PM PDT by kaehurowing
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To: kaehurowing

No, it's more like many of the clergy in ECUSA have decided to stop listening.


19 posted on 08/31/2005 9:15:38 PM PDT by Zero Sum (Marxism is the opiate of the masses.)
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To: Zero Sum

They're listening to a spirit, but it's not the Holy Spirit.


20 posted on 08/31/2005 10:20:22 PM PDT by kaehurowing
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