Posted on 08/11/2005 2:40:08 AM PDT by Navydog
You are right....the term Trinity was first coined by Quintus Septimius Florens Tertullianus (ca. 155-230)known as "The Father of the Western Church". He was one of the first great writters of Latin in the early Christian Church.
I understand all the verses in the Old and New Testaments against homosexual conduct were put in by Constantine also. [sarcasm]
I am fine. Hope the same for you. Still cherrypicking:
John 17:
20: "I do not pray for these only, but also for those who believe in me through their word,
21: that they may all be one; even as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
Not to mention the example of Christ's own baptism in Mt. 3:13. All three are present.
One can use textual analysis to prove that no passage in the Bible was ever written.
Excellent point. Many more could be made, but having had many discussions with die hard modalists like the author and poster of this article, it's not worth the effort right now. They always fall back on such nonsense as when the Three Persons of the Godhead are talking among themselves, and having a subject-object relationship, that it's Jesus talking to Himself and having a relationship with Himself.
That kind of illogic is hard to have a rational discussion with.
Reminds me of a oneness pentacostal I know. He started trying to explain his position by saying that the Trinity represents an ancient sun god that was worshipped prior to christianity. I'll stick with 1500 years of orthodox teachings instead joining the cults,muslims etc on this issue.
And if this a Constantinian (Roman Catholic) conspiracy then why wasnt the verses in the Acts of the Apostles changed as well? If yiu are going to have a coveruo then you got to bury all the bodies. I am not RC but thats my thought.
Reg ... with all due consideration, ... if you parse these verses correctly, ... they do not speak of any oneness between God and the disciples, ...
He speaks of the same oneness between all believers and God.
No exclusivitely here. (According to Reggie). :)
I am fine. Hope the same for you. Still cherrypicking:John 17:20 "I do not pray for these only, but also for those who believe in me through their word,Reg ... I do not see that Jesus is positing any particular type of unity here ... other than a type of spiritual unity ... of the abiding type which He had spoken of before ...
21: that they may all be one; even as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.John 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.However, thinking back upon your prior comment, ... it occurs to me that Jesus' statement ... "I and the Father are one." ... could be interpreted in a similar manner to the verses you cite, ... in that the type of unity that Jesus speaks of as existing between He and His Father is not distinguished.
5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
So, ... He very well have been declaring unity with the Father in the same way that I would claim union with you as an American, ... but situated in the context (as the conclusion of His prior statements), ... it appears that He is saying more than this.
Further, regarding just a subset of the real issue being debated here (i.e. the deity of Jesus), ... I continue to maintain that there is more than sufficient Old and New Testament evidence on which to base the belief.
If you are interested in such evidences, ... take a look at the following ...Isaiah 9:6-7 "For to us a child is born... and he will be called ... the Mighty God."
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Micah 5:2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.
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Mark 10:17 And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?
18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.
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John 1:1,14 — "The Word was God ... The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us."
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John 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
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John 14:8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
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John 20:27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
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Acts 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
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Philippians 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
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Colossians 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
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Hebrews 1:5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
I've heard most all of it from the Trintiy coming from Mithraism, to the Babylonian mystery religion's sun worship, and they twist Scripture as bad as any cult around.
Ah, but you neglected the strange use of the plural that God uses when speaking in the beginning...
Genesis 1:26 And he said: Let us make man to our image and likeness...
Well, if I wanted to start technical arguements, I could have also discussed the use of the plural Elohim in the Hebrew word used for God (as opposed to the singular Eloh, which became Elah in Aramaic and Allah in Arabic). What I did was sufficient for a start.
**Genesis 1:26 And he said: Let us make man to our image and likeness...**
So God made two men, one with gray hair, and a dove. (sarcasm)
No, He made one image that had a spirit and a soul.
Jesus Christ was man, with a soul, and the Almighty Spirit of God in him doing the miracles. God "worketh all things after the counsel of his own will". Eph 1:11
A post following will take this in to detail. Stay tuned...
**Reminds me of a oneness pentacostal I know. He started trying to explain his position by saying that the Trinity represents an ancient sun god that was worshipped prior to christianity.**
Maybe he didn't do a good job of explaining the Godhead.
Or maybe you don't have the revelation of Jesus Christ.
The Lord told Peter "Blessed art thou....for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven". Matt. 16:17
Question: Who is the Father of Jesus Christ? The Father (numerous references by Jesus to his Father)? Or the Holy Ghost (Matt. 1:18,20; Luke 1:35)? And which one is the "power of the Highest"?
Answer: The Father is the Father of the Son. The Father is the source of all life.
"All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him." Matt. 11:27
Question: Why does an omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent 'person' of God need anything delivered from another omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent 'person' of God?
Answer: There are not three omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent 'persons' of God. Jesus was/is God because of the Father in him, "he doeth the works". John 14:10
Question: Why is there three 'persons of God' present at the Lord's baptism?
Answer: there are NOT three persons present. Remember the Father is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent. He simply gave John the baptist an audio and visual confirmation that this Jesus was indeed His Son. Easy to do two things at once (or create a world) when you are THE power of the universe.
Question: Jesus prayed/or called to the Father countless times. Was this one God asking for help from another God?
Answer: No, the fleshly man was asking the Spirit "to take this cup from me". As mentioned above, Jesus said the Father (He is a Spirit; John 4:23,24) was/is in him doing the works. John the baptist said "..for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him. John 3:34.
On the cross Jesus felt something he previously had never experienced. The absolute departure of the Spirit of God. Hence, his words "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me". Had the Father 'doing the works' so choosed, He could have remained in that body, healing wounds, and manufacturing blood faster than the speed of light. Or empowered that body to come down from the cross as the taunters asked him to. But we know that was not the plan.
On that ressurection morning, the Spirit of God reentered that body and raised it up. Shortly after, Jesus told his followers: "ALL POWER is given unto me in HEAVEN and EARTH". If there's two other persons in the Godhead, they are 'lights out'.
Question: How many Spirits from God does one receive from God? After all, Paul told the Christians in Rome they had been given the 'Holy Ghost' (5:5), that if they didn't have the 'Spirit of Christ' they were none of his (8:9), and told the Ephesians (4:6) that they had "One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
Answer: God gives of himself a portion of his Spirit to the born again believer. It's the Spirit that raised Jesus from the dead. "God was in Christ reconciling the world unto himself".
Jesus Christ is the image of the invisible God. Col. 1:15
Matthew 28:19? No problem, leave it like it is. The 'name' must be Jesus. He came in his Father's name. Jesus said the Father would send the 'Comforter' (Holy Ghost) in "my name". And, of course, the name of the Son is Jesus.
I'm a father, a son, and a husband, but that's not my name.
(it's not Zuriel, either)
Do any of you sign your checks/contracts/ etc.: father(mother), son (daughter), and husband (wife)? If so, I need to bank there! :)
That's why the Apostles knew to baptize in the name of Jesus.
**I'll stick with 1500 years of orthodox teachings instead joining the cults,muslims etc on this issue.**
I'll stick with the Word of God, it's been right forever.
Paul explains that in I Cor 15.
1 Corinthians 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
Well, he lived too long ago to call him a "neo-con," which seems to be the current bogey-man of choice....
LOL, Constantine gets blamed for everything by cultists as much as Bush gets blamed for everything by leftists.
But you dont stick with the Word of God. You ignore the plain meaning of much of the New Testament. God sent his only begotten Son to take away the sins of the world. After the resurrection, Christ ascended into heaven to sit at the right hand of God. The comforter, the Holy Spirit, was sent in his place. Thats what scripture says. Furthermore, you ignore Paul's salutations where he mentions God the Father and Lord Jesus Christ in the same breath. Is the Godhead mysterious and hard to comprehend? Sure. So is the secret counsel of God. ALso, American oneness doctrine began at the turn of the last century at a pentacostal revival in Los Angeles wherein someone declared to have a "revelation". That "revelation" was also preached by William Branaham, who is considered by many to be a false prophet. Trinity is simply a descriptive word like rapture or bible.
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