Pope Benedict XVI and Orthodox / Anglican Reunification

CIVITAS DEI ^ | 24 May 2005 | Mgr Anthony Chadwick

[Tantumergo]

The main issue that is still a problem with Anglican orders and is likely to remain so is the question of "intent", and this also was the central point of Apostolae curae.

Those bishops and clergy of the Anglicans who were once known as Church papists, believe in "Massing priests" and the Real Presence, clearly have an intention to ordain priests in the Catholic understanding of the word.

However, the evangelical wing would consider these beliefs to be anathema, and nobody would seriously think that they had the intention to ordain priests in accordance with the Catholic understanding.

To give a concrete example a canonist I know recently had the opportunity to converse with one of the local C Of E bishops and I asked him how he reconciled the issue of intent with the varied understanding of ministry among those he was ordaining. His answer was that if the candidate wanted to be a sacrificing priest, then that is what he intended as he ordained him, and if the candidate wanted to be a minister of the word, then that was what he intended!

From the Catholic p.o.v. that is simply not good enough as nobody could be really sure if somebody had been ordained or not. Thus the practice over here is to examine each case on its merits when a clergyman swims the Tiber with a view to ordination in the Catholic Church. The usual result is at least to confer a conditional ordination.

I can't imagine how this would be dealt with if there was a re-unification en masse, however, I'm sure something would have to be done to ensure certainty of orders.

[bobjam]

The job of an Anglican priest is both sacramental and didactic. It is his duty to administer the sacraments and teach the Word. This holds true for Catholic and Orthodox priests as well.

[bobjam]

If Anglican orders were "absolutely null and utterly void" 100 years ago, then how could Rome recongnize TAC orders as valid? The clergy who left for TAC were ordained by the same bishops as the clergy who stayed. Therefore, if those bishops and the clergy who stayed are invalid, then the initial TAC priests were invalid as well. Were all TAC clergy re-ordained by Polish bishops? What rite was used?

[Tantumergo]

"The job of an Anglican priest is both sacramental and didactic."

Sure, but its not meant to be one to the exclusion of the other, which is the case in my particular part of the world. There are only evangelical Anglicans locally who are to all intents and purposes a variety of Presbyterian.

[Mark in the Old South]

Re: “I am sure that had Cardinal Rampolla really been a Mason, he would have been found out and excommunicated by St. Pius X - but he survived the terror of the Sodalitium Pianum years.”

Well now! This tells me a great deal about what the author thinks of SAINT Pius X. Perhaps I am mistaken, maybe it is all sarcasm.

As a former Episcopalian I would like to see the Orthodox Anglican believers swim the Tiber and a mass immigration seems wonderful, but I urge caution. Many of these “conservative” Anglicans are pro abortion (not all but many are), pro birth control (most in fact fit this), pro women priest (you would think they would learn) and a host of other issues from the dogma of Transubstantiation to the Immaculate birth of Mary.

They will need a good course in the Catholic Doctrine; I fear there is no will for that. It is too hard and many will reject the lessons learned. Anglicans have had centuries of cafeteria style doctrine. There is danger here. I am not saying don’t bring them in but I am sounding a warning to too much feel goodism without sound instruction. It wouldn’t do Cradle Catholics no harm to relearn the ancient teachings again either.

[jec1ny]

"If Anglican orders were "absolutely null and utterly void" 100 years ago, then how could Rome recongnize TAC orders as valid? The clergy who left for TAC were ordained by the same bishops as the clergy who stayed. Therefore, if those bishops and the clergy who stayed are invalid, then the initial TAC priests were invalid as well. Were all TAC clergy re-ordained by Polish bishops? What rite was used?"

My understanding is that it has been and would continue to be the policy of the church to require those religious of the Anglican tradition converting to be ordained by a Catholic bishop. I am not aware of any exceptions to this policy being granted in the last century or so. If anyone has knowledge of such exceptions I would be interested to read the particulars.

An interesting question is how solid is the decree regarding the validity of Anglican orders? It must be remembered that the church has always taught that Holy Orders along with Baptism and Confirmation are sacraments which may not be conferred more than once without sacrilege. In the case of Baptism the custom has been to use the formula for conditional Baptism if there is the slightest doubt about the convert having been validly baptized previously. Is there such a thing as conditional Holy Orders? If there is even a slight doubt about the validity of these orders how should one proceed?

[jec1ny]

"As a former Episcopalian I would like to see the Orthodox Anglican believers swim the Tiber and a mass immigration seems wonderful, but I urge caution. Many of these “conservative” Anglicans are pro abortion (not all but many are), pro birth control (most in fact fit this), pro women priest (you would think they would learn) and a host of other issues from the dogma of Transubstantiation to the Immaculate birth of Mary.

They will need a good course in the Catholic Doctrine; I fear there is no will for that. It is too hard and many will reject the lessons learned. Anglicans have had centuries of cafeteria style doctrine. There is danger here. I am not saying don’t bring them in but I am sounding a warning to too much feel goodism without sound instruction. It wouldn’t do Cradle Catholics no harm to relearn the ancient teachings again either."

With regards your concerns over converts who do not subscribe to the teachings of the church across the board, I have always been fond of the oath that used to be required of converts before Vatican II. The formula for the reception of converts was quite detailed and left no wiggle room. I am posting it below.

I, N. N.,... years old, (born outside the Catholic Church,) have held and believed errors contrary to her teaching. Now enlightened by divine grace, I kneel before you (if this is the case) Reverend Father N.N., having before my eyes and touching with my hands the Holy Gospels; and with a firm faith I believe and profess each and all the articles that are contained in the Apostles’ Creed, that is:
I believe in God, the Father almighty, creator of heaven and earth; and in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord, who was conceived by the Holy Ghost, born of the Virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died and was buried. He descended into hell; the third day he arose again from the dead; he ascended into heaven, sitteth at the right hand of God, the Father Almighty; from thence he shall come to judge the living and the dead. I believe in the Holy Ghost, the holy Catholic Church, the communion of the saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and life everlasting. Amen.

I admit and embrace most firmly the apostolic and ecclesiastical traditions and all the other constitutions and prescriptions of the Church.

I admit the sacred Scriptures according to the sense which has been held and is still held by Holy Mother Church, whose duty it is to judge the true sense and interpretation of the Sacred Scriptures, and I shall never accept or interpret them except according to the unanimous consent of the Fathers.

I profess that the Sacraments of the New Law are, truly and precisely, seven in number, instituted for the salvation of mankind, though all are not necessary for each individual: Baptism, Confirmation, Eucharist, Penance, Extreme Unction, Holy Orders, and Matrimony. I profess that all confer grace and that of these Baptism, Confirmation, and Holy Orders cannot be repeated without sacrilege.

I also accept and admit the Ritual of the Catholic Church in the solemn administration of all the above mentioned Sacraments.

I accept and hold, in each and every part, all that has been defined and declared by the Sacred Council of Trent concerning Original Sin and Justification. I profess that in the Mass is offered to God a true, real and propitiatory sacrifice for the living and the dead; that in the Holy Sacrament of the Eucharist is really, truly, and substantially the Body and Blood together with the Soul and Divinity of Our Lord Jesus Christ, and that there takes place what the Church calls transubstantiation, that is, the change of all the substance of the bread into the Body and all the substance of the wine into the Blood. I confess also that in receiving under either of these species one receives Jesus Christ, whole and entire.

I firmly hold that Purgatory exists and that the souls detained there can be helped by the prayers of the faithful. Likewise I hold that the saints, who reign with Jesus Christ, should be venerated and invoked, that they offer prayers to God for us, and that their relics are to be venerated.

I profess firmly that the images of Jesus Christ and of the Mother of God, ever Virgin, as well as of all the saints, should be given due honor and veneration. I also affirm that Jesus Christ left to the Church the faculty to grant indulgences and that their use is most salutary to the Christian people. I recognize the Holy, Roman, Catholic and Apostolic Church as the mother and teacher of all the Churches and I promise and swear true obedience to the Roman Pontiff, successor of St. Peter, Prince of the Apostles, and Vicar of Jesus Christ.

Besides I accept, without hesitation, and profess all that has been handed down, defined, and declared by the Sacred Canons and by the General Councils, especially by the Sacred Council of Trent and by the (First) Vatican General Council, and in a special manner concerning the primacy and infallibility of the Roman Pontiff. At the same time I condemn and reprove all that the Church has condemned and reproved. This same Catholic faith, outside of which nobody can be saved, which I now freely profess and to which I truly adhere, the same I promise and swear to maintain and profess, with the help of God, entire, inviolate, and with firm constancy until the last breath of life; and I shall strive, as far as possible, that this same faith shall be held, taught, and publicly professed by all those who depend on me and by those of whom I shall have charge. So help me God and these Holy Gospels.

While seated the priest says Psalm 129.

De profundis clamavi ad te Domine: * Domine exaudi vocem mean.
Fiant aures tuae intendentes, * in vocem deprecationis mae.
Si iniquitates observaveris, Domine:* Domine quis sustinebit?
Quia apud te propitiatio est: * et propter legem tuam sustinui te, Domine.

Sustinuit anima mea in verbo ejus: * speravit anima mea in Domine.
A custodia matutina usque ad noctem: * speret Israel in Domino.
Et ipse redimet Israel, * ex omnibus iniquitatibus ejus.
Gloria Patri, etc.

The priest then stands and says:

KYRIE, eleison.
R. Christe, eleison.
V. Kyrie, eleison. Pater noster (secreto).
V. Et ne nos inducas in tentationem.
R. Sed libera nos a malo.
V. Salvum fac servum tuum.
R. Deus meus, sperantem in te.
V. Domine, exaudi orationem meam.
R. Et clamor meus ad te veniat.
V. Dominus vobiscum.
R. Et cum spiritu tuo.

Oremus

Deus, cui propium est misereri semper et parcere: suscipe deprecationem nostram, ut hunc famulum tuum, quem excommunicationis catena constringit, miseratio tuae pietatis clementer absolvat. Per Christum Dominum nostrum.
R. Amen.

The PRIEST then sits down and turning towards the kneeling convert, absolves him from his (violation[s]) heresy, saying:
Latin English
AUCTORITATE apsotolica, qua fungor in hac parte, absolvo te a vinculo excommunicationis quam * (forsan) incurristi, et restituo te sacrosanctis Ecclesiae Sacramentis, communioni et unitati fidelium in nomine Patris et Filii, + et Spiritus Sancti. Amen. By the Apostolic authority, which I exercise here, I absolve thee from the bond of excommunication which (perchance) * thou hast incurred; and I restore thee to the holy Sacraments of the Church, to the communion and unity of the faithful, in the name of the Father, and of the Son +, and of the Holy Ghost. Amen.


Act of Perfect Contrition
O my God, I am heartily sorry for having offended Thee, and I detest all my sins, known and unknown, not only because I dread the loss of heaven and dread the pains of hell, and not only because Thou art my Creator, my Redeemer and my Sanctifier, but most of all because my sins have offended Thee, my God, Who art all good in Thyself and deserving of all my love. I firmly resolve, with the help of Thy grace, to confess my sins, to do penance and to amend my life. Amen.

[Mark in the Old South]

That is wonderful but will they remember what they promised two years down the line when they are screaming "What do you mean no birth control?!?!?!?!"

We are having enough problems with Catholics on this issue. Our secular society has completely undermined the notion of commitment (divorce and remarriage and divorce round II etc children out of wedlock even signed contracts seem to mean nothing these days).

I do like your pledge and I think I recall something like this when I converted but the details are fuzzy and I have been spending a lot more time on learning my Faith than most have time to commit. I wouldn't impose the amount of time I have spent on anyone even though I feel the time has been worth it and would recommend it to any. Still a course or two I think may be in order. It could be self paced, a workbook with a monthly or weekly class with a certified instructor or on-line so folks can ask and answer questions. Still your pledge should be part of it, it is a start.

[Hermann the Cherusker]

If Anglican orders were "absolutely null and utterly void" 100 years ago, then how could Rome recongnize TAC orders as valid? The clergy who left for TAC were ordained by the same bishops as the clergy who stayed. Therefore, if those bishops and the clergy who stayed are invalid, then the initial TAC priests were invalid as well. Were all TAC clergy re-ordained by Polish bishops? What rite was used?

From the 1930's to the 1970's, Polish National Catholic Church Bishops in the US and Old Catholic Bishops in England were involved in many ECUSA and CofE episcopal consecrations with the explicit purpose of rectifying the false lineage of Matthew Parker. Therefore, in many cases the situation today is quite different than that in 1896.

[Hermann the Cherusker]

Many of these “conservative” Anglicans are pro abortion (not all but many are), pro birth control (most in fact fit this), pro women priest (you would think they would learn) and a host of other issues from the dogma of Transubstantiation to the Immaculate birth of Mary.

It would appear you are totally oblivious to what the Anglo-Catholic movement really is in the Anglican Communion (and outside it). Most Anglo-Catholics are "more Catholic than the Pope", and certainly are not for any of the thigns you mention above.

There are some Evangelicals Anglicans who support some of those mistakes, but they aren't interested in swimming the Tiber.

[Hermann the Cherusker]

My understanding is that it has been and would continue to be the policy of the church to require those religious of the Anglican tradition converting to be ordained by a Catholic bishop. I am not aware of any exceptions to this policy being granted in the last century or so. If anyone has knowledge of such exceptions I would be interested to read the particulars.

Fr. John Jay Hughes and and Fr. Leonard Graham were both conditionally reordained sub conditione to the Priesthood.

An interesting question is how solid is the decree regarding the validity of Anglican orders?

The decree is utterly irreformable and is infallible. However, the decree is a dogma of historical circumstances and applied to the historical situation of 1896 in the CofE and ECUSA, not 2005 in the TAC and among FIF.

Is there such a thing as conditional Holy Orders? If there is even a slight doubt about the validity of these orders how should one proceed?

It is called reordination sub conditione. If there is the slightest doubt that an Anglican Minsiter might have valid orders, he is reordained sub conditione to avoid profanation. If there were some absolute proof he did have valid orders (say he was ordained by a Old Catholic or Polish National Bishop), he would simply be accepted into communion and and a clerical office by confession.

[Hermann the Cherusker]

The Anglo-Catholics are opposed to artificial birth control.

[jec1ny]

Thank you for that most informative reply to my question.

[Jim Noble]

That's a very nice profession of faith.

Don't you think, just to be fair, that if you are going to require it of converts, that you should require it of Catholics as well?

How many Catholics do you think could make that profession without lying?

Ten?

[jec1ny]

"That's a very nice profession of faith.
Don't you think, just to be fair, that if you are going to require it of converts, that you should require it of Catholics as well?

How many Catholics do you think could make that profession without lying? Ten?"

I am not sure about requiring that of every Catholic. Though I am in favor of reinstating the oath againts modernism with some updates for those being ordained or holding positions as teachers at Catholic schools and colleges. As for how many Catholics could in good concience recite the oath, probably it would be more than ten. But I am guessing there are quite a few who would balk or lie. But I also agree with the Pontiff that it will be necessary for the church to shrink somewhat for the forseeable future in order to save itself. I am not generally a big fan of mass excommunications but I do think its time to come down firmly on certain subjects. An ex cathedra declaration against the ordination of women would be a good start. That could be followed by an edict demanding that pro-abortion politicians recant or be placed under a formal interdict. That should send a firm message.

[Mark in the Old South]

Re: "How many Catholics do you think could make that profession without lying?"

None. They would not be Catholic if they did so. Their intent is required or it is not valid. Of course you and I would not be able to tell (at least not right away) but Heaven knows.

[ArrogantBustard]

Re: "How many Catholics do you think could make that profession without lying?"
None. They would not be Catholic if they did so. Their intent is required or it is not valid. Of course you and I would not be able to tell (at least not right away) but Heaven knows.

Mark, with all due respect: Would you please rephrase that answer? I cannot tell which of two diametrically opposed things you're saying, and I'd rather not ass-u-me.

grazie

[Mark in the Old South]

Let me get back to you on this one. I am trying to remember the explanation I received on such things when I was confirmed. The Priest was explaining the need for sincerity on the part of the person being confirmed to make our vows valid and licit. I will do some fact checking to make sure I explain my point clearly. Feel free to offer up what you think while I do this.

[ArrogantBustard]

I think that anyone employed as a teacher of theology (even a volunteer CCD teacher) should profess that oath (or something very like it). And that any Catholic should be able either to profess it in good conscience OR be actively seeking to rectify any discrepancies. Most of us, I suspect, have had our moments of doubt. I certainly have.

[Mark in the Old South]

I am not finding anything in my Catholic Dictionary that provides insight to the source of the Priest's instructions before Confirmation other than this line in Addis and Arnold's Catholic Dictionary under Confirmation:

"All baptized persons are capable of receiving this sacrament, though to receive it with fruit they must be in a state of grace."

I will have to dig deeper to guess his source and exact explanation.