The Denomination Called Catholic

First Things Magazine ^ | 1997 | David Carlin

[Cato1]

This is one of the best things I have read in a while. I found this when looking at reviews of his book The Deline and Fall of the Catholic Church in America http://www.ad2000.com.au/articles/2004/sep2004p17_1748.html

[sine_nomine]

A better treatment is Liberalism: Its Cause and Cure.

[deroberst]

I think the most salient point is that the parts of the church that are prospering most are those that have taken the high road and decline to model on the main-line Protestants. Converts from other traditions have helped this cause (as was pointed out in the article) but there are plenty of “cradle-Catholics” who are traditionalist too (myself included). We are not reverting to pre-Vatican II but rather transcending it. The prospering dioceses and seminaries are almost all traditionalist. One can even occasionally hear the Latinate echoes of the Tridentine Mass here and there.

[Cato1]

I have spent the better part of the last year reading the traditionalist or neo traditionalist arguments of Davies - who is great; The Great Facade, etc... I am encouraged that the indult is gradually being accepted and hundreds of people are going the the Tridentine Mass. This along with the more conservative bent of new priests and seminarians should help reign in on the experimentation in the Novus Ordo. On the other hand, Pentacostalism is spreading like wildfire and I fear that will become the dominant trend. We shall see. An Anglican priest friend who likes to say mass in Latin said to me that it takes 100 years to fix the liturgy. This happened in England under Cromwell or Cramer (i think) and it took one hundred years to bring the liturgy back. As long as we keep the Tridentine rite alive it won't disapear. For myself, as crazy as it sounds, i think the answer is a combination of latin and english in the Tridentine rite would expand interest in it. But i am starting a blog to talk about such things http://sflatinmass.blogspot.com

[sassbox]

I've thought that too, about combining Latin and English in the Tridentine rite. I've read translations of the Tridentine rite and think the rubrics and prayers are just beautiful. Since most poeple do not know latin, I think the beauty of the old rite would be much better conveyed if it were said in the vernacular, retaining Latin for some special parts like Agnus Dei, but the rubrics (priest facing the east during consecration, etc) were the same as pre-Vat II.

[CouncilofTrent]

I don't think it would be necessary to say those in the vernacular. The Propers are translated in a missal and the Gospel and Epistle are said in the vernacular before the homily. And much of the second part of the Mass you can't hear (I read it in my missal though). And the Ordinary of the Mass doesn't need to be said in english because after a while, you learn it Latin.

[kjvail]

A better treatment is Liberalism: Its Cause and Cure.

Liberalism is a virus that destroys everything it touches. What was built by the Catholic Church over 1000 years will take liberalism less than 1/2 that time to dissolve. The West will collapse into barbarism and paganism, probably in another 100 year perhaps less. Islam will probably dominate the globe for a time but a core of Christianity will survive.

[Cato1]

So do I, that is why I like the Tridentine mass. At St. Agnes in St. Paul, MN the priest still faces East during the Eucharistic Sacrifice, etc... you would think you are in a Tridentine Liturgy but it is the novus ordo because and they are doing it in Latin. Even in Latin the Novus Ordo doesn't seem to have the depth that the Tridentine Liturgy has. I especially like the Tridentine mass and prayers and think more people would like it if there was enough english to attract them. all of the orthodox rites use the language of the people, from egyptian and greek to ethiopian and russian. I say better a Tridentine mass in english and latin then the Novus Ordo in Latin?

[Salvation]

Welcome to FR! Only two weeks!

[Salvation]

** it takes 100 years to fix the liturgy.**

I have never heard this, but knowing how slowly the church moves..................wait!

How did the Novus Ordo get accepted so quickly? (It hasn't even been 100 years! Maybe we haven't even seen what the Novus Ordo Mass is supposed to look like!

[Kolokotronis]

"all of the orthodox rites use the language of the people, from egyptian and greek to ethiopian and russian. "

In our Greek Orthodox Parish here in America we use about 75% English and 25% Greek, though the choir actually uses a little more Greek. I was initially against the increasing use of English, but I have to say that the explosive growth of the parish, and indeed the diocese through the conversion of English speaking people to Orthodoxy has made me change my mind. We also have a large number of "cradle" Orthodox from countries which speak other than Greek, but they all speak English. By the way, try to use Church English, not sports page English. I was just looking through a 1956 St. Joseph Daily Missal we have in the house and the English translation is beautiful.

[Cato1]

been reading FR for a long time. only posted in past two weeks. what is the diference between salvation and redemption?

[Cato1]

"I was just looking through a 1956 St. Joseph Daily Missal we have in the house and the English translation is beautiful."

Thanks for the feedback.

I agree with the translation idea. The Catholic Church is working on a new translation from Latin lead by a smart and able Latin scholar. The question is whether or not the Bishops will accept it when it is done.

I was wondering what was happening in the Greek Orthodox world, etc...

I was just in Russia and many people were at Church. This is what made me think about using more English in the Tridentine Liturgy. In fact, I think that is what some of the Council Fathers had in mind not an entirely new Liturgy.

[CouncilofTrent]

"The Catholic Church is working on a new translation from Latin lead by a smart and able Latin scholar."

I hope they can at least fix that "We believe" thing. Credo and Credex are two different things.

[Cato1]

i just say "I" believe quietly, so my voice gets lost in the crowd, as well as "And with your spirit" or "Et cum Spiritu Tuo" etc... "...my sould shall be healed" I remember when i was young they just started giving communion in the hand et. al. and people just did it. Well why can't we just quietly say the real translation to ourselves. At the end of mass i always say Deo Gratias quietly too. I started doing it when the priests and lay people were replacing all of the references to the "Father" with "God."

[CouncilofTrent]

I go to a Latin Mass, so its not much of a problem for me.

[Cato1]

there is no daily latin mass in san francisco. and the sunday masses usually are some latin not all latin

[NYer]

First things, first.

Welcome to Free Republic!

These new Catholics are deliberate and self-conscious opponents of the denominational ideal, and their mere presence in the Church slows the Catholic drift toward absolute denominationalism. If they are religious intellectuals, their writing, teaching, and preaching slow it down even more. This is nothing new; in the last two centuries some of the most effective Catholic opponents of liberal religion have come from the outside: John Henry Newman in England, Jacques Maritain in France, and others.

To that list you may add Dr. Scott Hahn, Marcus Grodi, Roy Schoeman ... and a host of others. They have studied their Bibles inside and out and have found the fullness of truth resides in the Catholic Church. I truly believe these 'converts' are the new evangelists for the Catholic faith. While poorly formed catholics are leaving the church, theologically well-educated individuals from other faiths are pouring in and seeking to develop innovative methods to 'educate' others to the Truths of the Catholic Church.

Excellent article!

Catholic Ping - please freepmail me if you want on/off this list

[Dog Gone]

I think it's been bad coaching and a very weak secondary, assuming we're actually talking about Notre Dame football.

And they should drop USC from their annual schedule.