Father Zigrang suspended by Bishop Joseph Fiorenza

Christ or Chaos ^ | 15th July 2004 | Dr Thomas Droleskey

[ninenot]

Go back to the mag/newspaper circulation numbers. IIRC, The Wanderer only prints 30,000/week. First Things prints maybe 10,000/month (and a lot of those go to libraries where they are never seen again.)

Latin Mass? Maybe 10,000/month (pinging an expert on that question.)

So of the 15 million Catholics who actually show up every week, perhaps 250,000 subscribe to publications which talk about "a crisis."

What's that? One point seven percent...

[Grey Ghost II]

There's no safety in numbers when it comes to one's eternal salvation.

[Maximilian]

Just curious, what is wrong with the picture you posted?

The priest offering Mass is violating every possible rubric. In addition, while there are probably aren't any rubrics that say "Place no pagan idols upon the altar during Mass," because it never would have occurred to anyone making the rules that it could ever become an issue, but the fact that he is offering Mass (I suppose he would say he his "celebrating Eucharist") in front of a big gold idol of the Buddha is something I consider scandalous, sacrilegious, blasphemous and infamous. Moreover, since this Mass was part of a Buddhist-Christian syncretist gathering, you can judge from the postures of the participants that some sort of Zen meditation was included in the Mass.

[AAABEST]

You know, until your post I thought the millions and millions of dollars lost, the out of control heresy, the invasion of sexual criminals, the clergy being a fraction of what it was just a few decades ago, the apostasy of the Western world, the seminaries becoming like San Francisco bathhouses, the ruination of the catechism, the failure of our schools to produce Catholic children and all of the other multitudes of problems we are experiencing would be enough to consider ourselves in "crisis".

Your one silly post however has changed all of that. Thank you for putting it all in perspective, you're a genius.

[Piers-the-Ploughman]

you wrote: Work within the Church to bring her back to her true roots and work without to maintain that pure objective.

I knew there had to someone else out there who thought similar to me. thanks Tradical RC

[Grey Ghost II]

In addition, while there are probably aren't any rubrics that say "Place no pagan idols upon the altar during Mass,"

If there were, it would have to be revised to say "The POPE shall not allow pagan idols upon the altar during Mass during his ecumenical love-fests".

[ArrogantBustard]

The priest offering Mass is violating every possible rubric

He's also engaging in behaviour which is worse, by orders of magnitude, than anything I have ever personally witnessed or heard of second hand. (My viewing of the picture is at least third hand). Even in my darkest days in the Dreadful Diocese of Richmond I never saw anything even closely resembling that. To imply that such blasphemy and sacrilege is common or widespread does not strike me as being particularly honest.

[Dominick]

As evidence for the "Yes" position, take a look at this photo. And please don't pretend that this is unusual. There are hundreds of photos like this or even worse that pop up every single week:

This isn't evidence of anything but someone misappropriating a Mass, and a Priest pretending his is Catholic. I see no approbations here, and on it's face, this is in violation of Church Law. Arguably this is highly unusual, how many Masses take place without a Buddha?

Disobedience is always wrong, unless there is a good reason, and if it really is an emergency, then you should be prepared to take your lumps. For the SSPX in particular, and more generally, those who are saying the Pope is an innovator, if they are serving God before the Church, that would require there to be a conflict between God and Church, so why would the approbation of the Pope or his approval be required or even desired? I mean this, if the Catholic Church is overthrown, and says you are not part of it anymore, why would you care?

For lunatic Priests who somehow think mixing Eastern non-Christian faiths somehow improves Christianity, the Church has penalties as well, but abandoning the Church by Traditionalist faithful leaves those with the true Catholic Church in a lurch.

These mixers of Faith don't care what they have to say, as long as they can remove Traditionalist from the Faith. Everything is good for them, except those of us who want real Catholicism.

I equate the SSPX and these liberals, they are both disobeying the superiors set above them by God, as stated in the Bible (and you know the verse as I do).

Let me put out a challenge in a parable to you who are on the SSPX fence or over it.
The faithful are just Tourists in the World, destined to return to Heaven. We only spend a short vacation here, and we are planning to return to our home for our eternity. Who would be worse, the cannibal horde who set upon a crowd of tourists, to devour them, or those who flee leaving the others not as well equipped to defend themselves to be devoured? The cannibals are evil and set on destroying the tourists, however, those of you who are well equipped by a gift from God, with intelligence and wit to defend against them, are fleeing the horde.

You leave the simple and trusting to them, and they ARE being eaten. They can't flee, and you leave them to their doom. Essentially throwing your gifts of wit and your zeal for souls in the trash by leaving for the SSPX or other groups.

Long ago men stood is large files with pikes they were shoulder to shoulder, the pikes were 20 feet long with a point. If half of them ran away, the whole company was doomed. Even tried holding a 20 foot pole? Think how you could defend yourself with one, you depended on the men next to you.

I conclude those of you who have separated yourselves, are cooperating with the "Buddhist" "Priest". You need to help us save the whole of the Church, because the battle is not yet lost, and I seriously think it can be done more now than ever in the 40 years from Vatican II. As you flee the Church, you are helping them seek the ruin of Souls.

[Dominick]

He cannot obey an intrinsically wrong order and then worry about the consequences later. So the question comes down to this, "Should Fr. Zigrang have followed the order to cease offering the Latin Mass, or was he required in conscience to refuse this order?" He decided that he was required in conscience to refuse the order, because to obey the order would be to make oneself complicit in the deaths of many innocent souls.

The assumption here is that the Novus Ordo is lacking, it is a Mass, and to say otherwise invites the Bishop to act.

As it turned out, Fr. Zigrang only said the Latin Mass once in his parish, because the bishop responded with such lightning speed. When a pederast is sodomizing young parishioners, bishops seem to require years or in some cases even decades to respond.

I disagree. I have been right where such an action occurred, in the 70s. As soon as the Priest was found in a homosexual act (with an adult), he was gone right away. You can't point at another wrong and say, "but he is doing other bad things", when you are older than 9.

Saying that we should not act in one case of wrong, when we did not act in another wrong, in not the correct course of action. We can agree all wrongs that a Bishop sees must be acted on with equal priority. I agree they come down on Traditionalists faster than liberals, thats because the faithful liberals will appease the Bishop, because they have so scruples like we have. The Traditionalist will not appease the Bishop in any way, and then often leave the whole Church, leaving his brethren to fend for themselves.

[Piers-the-Ploughman]

Yes Fr Haley is a hero. I hopes there is a way for him to be supported.
The trial will be interesting and but haunting if Loverde wins.
OTOH, if raw political power does triumph for Loverde, maybe other brave priests will come forward. At some point, like communism, the lies of modernism and perversion will cause the collapse of bad episcopates; better sooner than later, many souls in the balance.

[Hermann the Cherusker]

The only reason why I ask this is in such a way is I'm wondering how a seemingly well read and intelligent person can come up with such an absurd statement as that above.

Humor me and tell me you were just kidding.

Go to Catholic churches around the world and ask people if Vatican II and the New Mass are causing them to lose their faith and if they think the Church is in a dramatic crisis since 1962. Most will look at you like you have two heads.

I'm suggesting that the overwhelming majority of Catholics simply don't see the crisis that traditionalists see.

So if we are to go about saying the Church is in crisis, we need to be aware that this is not at all obvious to 999 out of 1000 Catholics.

[Hermann the Cherusker]

Many are duplicate subscriptions, or are sent to libraries where few people look at them. Don't make the mistake of adding them all up.

How many Catholic families at your parish do you know that subscribe to any of these publications?

[Piers-the-Ploughman]

SSPX priests do serve people; they do not flee from battle with the world. Your analogy is unfair that way.

JP II has asked for a wide and generous application of TLM; SSPX is providing it as best they can.

Equating liberals (modernists and pro-perverts) and sspx is a little broadbrushed and lacks discretion. Surely one is allowed to distinguish between a priest who is 98% faithful and one is 50% faithful to Catholic teachings. I believe that is why Msgr perle admitted more latitude in his 1998 letter regarding sspx masses.

I would agree that sspx ought first go to wastelands like Albany and Rochester etc.

[Hermann the Cherusker]

Surely one is allowed to distinguish between a priest who is 98% faithful and one is 50% faithful to Catholic teachings. I believe that is why Msgr perle admitted more latitude in his 1998 letter regarding sspx masses.

Is there a real difference between 2% mortal sin and 50% mortal sin?

[AAABEST]

You leave the simple and trusting to them, and they ARE being eaten. They can't flee, and you leave them to their doom. Essentially throwing your gifts of wit and your zeal for souls in the trash by leaving for the SSPX or other groups.

Dominick, we haven't "left" anyone. We're right here and still Catholics who are having a disproportionate affect on the world around us. We're beating the "cannibals" back.

[Maximilian]

imply that such blasphemy and sacrilege is common or widespread does not strike me as being particularly honest.

At least those people holding the "Buddha Mass" have a serious and reverent demeanor. Here is a photo of another Mass, posted just TODAY. There are more than enough photos to fill a scrapbook for every day of the year.

Remember, these are just the people who feel inspired to post the pictures of their "Eucharistic celebrations" on the internet. How many don't get photographed or don't get posted on the internet?

[Maximilian]

You leave the simple and trusting to them, and they ARE being eaten. They can't flee, and you leave them to their doom. Essentially throwing your gifts of wit and your zeal for souls in the trash by leaving for the SSPX or other groups.

I see the story differently. All those who support and encourage the wolves attacking the sheep, and all those who turn a blind eye when they know enough to see the innocent souls being led to the slaughter, these people share the guilt of complicity. Only those who speak and protest and take a stand of public opposition can claim to have a clean conscience (on this issue at least). The SSPX is not abandoning the innocent -- those who pretend that Cardinal Mahoney and McCarrick and Kasper and all the rest are Catholics, these are the people who are abandoning the innocent.

[Maximilian]

Saying that we should not act in one case of wrong, when we did not act in another wrong, in not the correct course of action.

But offering the Latin Mass can never be categorized as a "wrong." In the newspapers of this very day, we have a story where a predator priest trolled for gay sex on several gay websites, travelling to Las Vegas and other locations for rendevous with gay partners, especially young ones. Numerous letters were sent to his bishop by parishioners protesting the appointment of this sexual pervert as their pastor. The bishop rebuked the parishioners, not the pastor. Until finally the Roman Catholic Faithful posted the pastor's gay internet exchanges for all to see. The bishop continues to praise the pervert's wonderful "pastoral leadership" and intends to put him back in a parish after he returns from counseling.

Let's face it, this is a "wrong." This is wrong, wrong, wrong. Saying the Latin Mass, on the other hand, is not a "wrong." As a matter of fact, it is a "right," one which was guaranteed to all Catholics for all futurity of time.

[Notwithstanding]

Hi

[Canticle_of_Deborah]

SSPXers: What is your take on posts #149 and #160?

Since it is a fact SSPX is not in schism, I usually ignore those posters who stop their feet and insist otherwise.