[Hank Kerchief]

...there must be cause for our reasoning.

I think you must mean something other than what you have said here. "Reasoning," cannot be caused. The problem is that "caused" things are "determined." That is, if something has a cause, that thing must be what it is, because its nature is determined by whatever caused it.

But this is just what reason cannot be. If our reason, that is, our thoughts have a cause, whatever thoughts we have are determined by whatever causes them.

But if reason is not more than so many caused events, there is no basis for assuming they have any more meaning than any other caused events, like water running downhill or a flame consuming fuel.

The one thing reason cannot be is caused. The one absolute necessity for reason is volition. Volition, by definition, cannot be caused.

Hank

[PatrickHenry]

Volition, by definition, cannot be caused.

A quibble here. This would make more sense to me if you said: "Volition, by definition, cannot be caused determined." I assume we agree that there is a cause for everything.

[Heartlander]

Hank,

When I said:

Cause and reason, or cause and no reason – but there must be cause for our reasoning.

Followed by the tag line(which apparently doesn’t hit as hard as a punch line):

…or there is no reason for our cause… wouldn’t that be ‘bright’…

I was engaging in 'wordplay' and due to the limited amount of ‘word players’, some were playing dual roles. Sure, you have your ‘reasons’ for taking issue with a couple of the players, but don’t discount the possible ‘cause’ being my direction of the ‘wordplay’.

This forum is just a stage, and all the words are merely, players;
They have their exits and their entrances;
And one word in its’ time plays many parts…
as you like it.

Unfortunately I cannot use sock puppets here, but once again:

The deist/theist states we are here by design and the atheist states we are here due to mindlessness i.e., no design. Our universe is designed or just a mindless, dumb luck occurrence.

Is consciousness subsumed by mindlessness i.e. lack of design and intelligence?

Cause and reason no longer come into play... unless...

Heart