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Saddam's reign of terror – where prisoners die in plastic shredders
yorkshire today ^ | 3/12/03

Posted on 03/12/2003 5:18:02 PM PST by knak

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To: ez
Your evidence is hardly overwhelming. Mostly old war crimes committed during the time when we, at the very least, looked the other way. The rest are "stories" or routine for the Middle East. It is not surprising that keeping an ethnic minority in absolute power requires such ruthlessness.

But Saddam's ruthlessness is not a reason for us to attack and should not be part of any debate over war.

41 posted on 03/12/2003 7:03:28 PM PST by palmer (receive this important and informative post - FREE)
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To: knak
Yeah, but what did Iraq do to US???

— Susan Sarandon

42 posted on 03/12/2003 7:05:58 PM PST by SerpentDove (Pro-America Rally - Saturday 3/22 Downtown Dallas- Old Red Courthouse...BE THERE!)
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To: Billthedrill
Am I supposed to have sympathy for people under dictatorships and support wars to "free" them? Sorry, no. One case in point: we were told to sympathize with Albanians being ruthlessly killed by a Serbian dictator. But the truth was the Albanians were more ruthless than the Serbs and were allied, at least philosophically, with the 9/11 terrorists.
43 posted on 03/12/2003 7:09:34 PM PST by palmer (receive this important and informative post - FREE)
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To: palmer
I see it as all interconnected. That Saddam *is* evil is merely the starting point.
44 posted on 03/12/2003 7:22:17 PM PST by k2blader (Please do not feed the Tag Lion. ®oar.)
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To: palmer
Of course you're supposed to have sympathy for people living under ruthless dictatorships, and you do. LOL! Don't try to sell me that you don't, I know better. You do have an intolerance for exaggerated stories, and so do I.

But this is one of the central moral dilemmas of the 20th century - what do you do when the stories turn out to be true? At what point are you morally obligated to stop the evil despite the fact that it isn't pointed at you personally...yet? The Jews-in-the-camps simile has been cited so often it's nearly cant by now but it is not inappropriate - at what point does that sort of thing justify outside intervention in and of itself? Ever? Never?

I don't like the "never" answer - it smacks of a moral certitude that prefers logical consistency to humanity. That certitude would have us ignore the grossest barbarities and I do not think we can follow that course and remain human beings; its opposite would have us meddling on principle every time our sensibilities are bruised, not an uncommon occurrence in the real world, and is equally prone to error. The middle ground is a judgment call, and is the reason we need brains and moral sense to act as stewards of the power we now find in our hands.

The consensus after WWII (and, incidentally, the main impetus for founding the UN) was that yes, at least in the case of genocide there is justification for outside intervention by otherwise disinterested parties. Perhaps there are other brutalities so gross as to invoke that same codicil. We need to think about this carefully before we use it to justify the killing of other human beings, but that isn't a "never" answer.

45 posted on 03/12/2003 7:27:47 PM PST by Billthedrill
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To: knak
I want out of the UN. Toss the double parkers, the goons, the elitist, and tell them to go home. Good bye and good riddance to the UN.

And Saddam's special adviser, Barzan al-Tikriti – Iraq's former representative on the UN Commission on Human Rights – had personally tortured detainees before their execution.

46 posted on 03/12/2003 7:30:23 PM PST by GOPJ
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To: ex-Texan
Yeah, fargo was a true story too. I love Steve Buscemi. Another weirdo like Christopher Walken
47 posted on 03/12/2003 7:31:03 PM PST by RummyChick
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To: palmer
>>>>>Saddam may not have any WMD, that he probably has no effective delivery mechanisms even short range ones....I certainly know that they are the only issues that matter

Here, I can help you with that.

http://www.iraqwatch.org/search/search_db.asp?sc=enduser&qu=russia&sm=exact
48 posted on 03/12/2003 7:37:53 PM PST by Calpernia
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To: Rudder
Hrum, what kind of article do you intend to publish, and in what context would the quote be used?

Please feel free to FReepmail.

... No worries, I'm not a lawyer ... ;-)
49 posted on 03/12/2003 7:39:12 PM PST by k2blader (Please do not feed the Tag Lion. ®oar.)
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To: dighton
One and the same. Got proof to the contrary?

You don't.

Either do I. As it stands, by narrative is every bit as plausible as yours.

Intelligence agencies use so-called 'journalists' all the time.....
50 posted on 03/12/2003 7:42:34 PM PST by Byron deVilliers
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To: knak
Saddam will get his. Between our new MOAB (the mother of all bombs) and our allies the Brits...Britain 'to play full role in Iraq invasion'...it's only a matter of time. ;)
51 posted on 03/12/2003 7:45:16 PM PST by veronica
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To: palmer
Do you think he destroyed them all after the first inspection team left or what?
52 posted on 03/12/2003 7:47:48 PM PST by knak (kelly in alaska)
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To: Byron deVilliers
>>>>Note the source.

You are right. Let me see. A daughter of a guy with a political ax to grind. Countless Iraqi Nationals here as refugees with similar types of stories. Then, let's consider a brief bio of SH, shall we?

A son of a poor peasant, Saddam attempted
assassination of the Prime Minister of Iraq and was charged and sentenced to death at the age of 20. Escaping from the prison, he became a rebellious leader, and consequently the military President of the Republic of Iraq.

April 28, 1937
Born in Tikrit, Iraq.

1956
Joined the Arab Baath Socialist Party.

1959
Attempted assassination of Iraqi Prime Minister Qasim.
Arrested for six-months.

1960
Sentenced to death.
Escaped to Syria and later to Egypt.

1962-63
Studied law in Cairo, but left it incomplete.

1963
Elected member of Baath Party in Iraq.

1964
Arrested for charges of rebelling against the regime.

September 1966
Elected Deputy Secretary General of Baath Party Leadership in Iraq, while in prison.

1967
Escaped from Prison.

July 1968
Coup against Iraq’s President and overthrew the regime.

1969
Elected the Vice-chairman of the Revolution Command Council.

1972
Nationalized oil companies.

1977
Elected Assistant Secretary General of National Pan-Arab Leadership of Baath Party.

July 16, 1979
Elected as the Chairman of RCC and as the President of Iraq.

1980
Attacked the oil-reserves of Iran, and initiated the Iran-Iraq war.

1988
Cease-fire between Iran and Iraq.

August 2, 1990
Seized Kuwait.

January 16, 1991
America led air troops began bombing Baghdad.

February 1991
The Persian Gulf War ended by declaration of cease-fire by US President George Bush.

1996
Accepted the ‘Oil for Food’ program, proposed by the UN Security Council.

1997
Makes contact with Osama Bin Laden and sets up training camps for Al Qaeda in Baghdad.

You are right. It is a toss up. His creds are outstanding. There can't be one 'shred' of truth to what any of these Iraqi Nationals say!
53 posted on 03/12/2003 7:49:03 PM PST by Calpernia
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To: Admin Moderator
A.M., we have a sleeper Varmint Cong. Please see #s 33 and 50.
54 posted on 03/12/2003 7:52:10 PM PST by dighton
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To: Billthedrill
Thanks for the amateur psychology. Biographical parallels don't really make the case unless we accept your vague terms as actually describing identitical phenomena.....

For instance:

"both ended up as minor functionaries in revolutionary parties."

So what? That describes any number of people. Millions in fact....

"Both suborned the leadership of those parties, both moved over several more likely rivals to assume leadership."

Name a president, prime minister, or other leader who hasn't.

"Both systematically killed the rivals."

I suppose, then, that Robbespierre was just like Stalin. And so were the American revolutionary militias led by those who would become 'the Founding Fathers'...


"Both set up huge systems of policing, internal spying, denunciation, imprisonment without trial, internal prison camps."

Sounds like the good ol' USA at this particular moment.....


"Both eliminated other political parties by mass killing."

And American troops killing Iraqis (political opponents) is different how?

It's all in the narrative, friend....









55 posted on 03/12/2003 7:53:11 PM PST by Byron deVilliers
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To: Billthedrill
Thanks for the amateur psychology. Biographical parallels don't really make the case unless we accept your vague terms as actually describing identitical phenomena.....

For instance:

"both ended up as minor functionaries in revolutionary parties."

So what? That describes any number of people. Millions in fact....

"Both suborned the leadership of those parties, both moved over several more likely rivals to assume leadership."

Name a president, prime minister, or other leader who hasn't.

"Both systematically killed the rivals."

I suppose, then, that Robbespierre was just like Stalin. And so were the American revolutionary militias led by those who would become 'the Founding Fathers'...


"Both set up huge systems of policing, internal spying, denunciation, imprisonment without trial, internal prison camps."

Sounds like the good ol' USA at this particular moment.....


"Both eliminated other political parties by mass killing."

And American troops killing Iraqis (political opponents) is different how?

It's all in the narrative, friend....









56 posted on 03/12/2003 7:54:20 PM PST by Byron deVilliers
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To: Calpernia
"You are right. It is a toss up. His creds are outstanding. There can't be one 'shred' of truth to what any of these Iraqi Nationals say!"

Don't put words in my mouth. I didn't present an alternative theory of what was 'true' and 'not true'. I simply pointed out that stories like these are quite easy to fabricate and disseminate....
57 posted on 03/12/2003 7:56:46 PM PST by Byron deVilliers
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To: knak
I think I am going to throw up.
58 posted on 03/12/2003 7:59:36 PM PST by lawgirl (Running from the Grand Ennui--Nez)
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To: dighton
What's that that Billthedrill was saying about 'denunciation' etc.?

Dighton, ol' friend, you'd be the first to join up for the Thought Police....

Wait, it's already too late.....
59 posted on 03/12/2003 7:59:41 PM PST by Byron deVilliers
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To: Byron deVilliers
Dighton, ol' friend ...

A**hole, I'm not your friend.

60 posted on 03/12/2003 8:01:26 PM PST by dighton
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