Saddam's reign of terror – where prisoners die in plastic shredders

yorkshire today ^ | 3/12/03

[knak]

Chilling new details of Saddam Hussein's reign of terror in Iraq – including prisoners being killed by being fed through industrial shredders – were revealed to MPs yesterday.

Researchers preparing an indictment of Saddam for crimes against humanity detailed evidence of torture, murder and ethnic cleansing gathered from witnesses in northern Iraq over the past few weeks. Their horrific report included eyewitness testimony of children being gassed in jail.

And the MPs heard an impassioned plea for military intervention from Shanaz Rachid, the daughter of prominent Kurdish leader Ibrahim Ahmed, who accused the international community of standing by for more than two decades while the Iraqi people suffered under Saddam.

Iraqi Kurds and Shia Muslims would welcome war to unseat the dictator, but were fearful that chemical weapons would be used to massacre them if US and UK troops withdrew from the area without toppling him, she said.

Ms Rachid was scathing about the role of French President Jacques Chirac in leading opposition to war, which she said the Kurdish people would not "easily forget".

Presenting evidence to MPs at the House of Commons, researchers from Indict – the organisation gathering evidence to prosecute Saddam and his henchmen – said many of the stories were so horrific they were difficult to believe.

But there was a "remarkable consistency" in evidence from many different sources, which boosted its credibility.

Witnesses had told them about prisoners having nails torn out, being given electric shocks to the genitals, tortured with boiling water and beaten. Women were suspended by the hair or legs in front of their families and raped, while their husbands were forced to watch.

Saddam's son Qusay – the head of Iraq's security and intelligence agencies – had administered mustard gas on prisoners, including a 12-year-old boy, whose father heard his screams from a neighbouring cell, they were told.

And Saddam's special adviser, Barzan al-Tikriti – Iraq's former representative on the UN Commission on Human Rights – had personally tortured detainees before their execution.

One witness, who spent 15 years in jail after being accused of using a false surname, described a particularly horrific method of execution: "There was a machine designed for shredding plastic. Men were dropped into it and we were ... made to watch. "Sometimes they went in head first, and died quickly. Sometimes they went in feet first and died screaming. It was horrible. I saw 30 people die like this. "Their remains would be placed in plastic bags and we were told they would be used as fish food. On one occasion, I saw Qusay Saddam Hussein personally supervising these murders."

Kamaran Sabir, a member of the Patriotic Union of Kurdistan, who has worked with Indict, told MPs: "The war between Saddam's regime and the Iraqi people is continuing. It started decades ago and has caused thousands of deaths each year.

"Military co-operation to end Saddam's regime would be welcomed by the Iraqi people. We want to be able to live like the rest of the world."

Ms Rachid said: "Everybody keeps talking about the United Nations, but, as far as we are concerned, the UN has not done anything for the people of Iraq, and they will not do so.

"We have heard for so many years that the UN inspectors have gone in and destroyed weapons. As far as we are concerned, the UN could spend another 20 years going backwards and forwards to Bagdad, and nothing would change."

If the current military build-up did not lead to Saddam's overthrow, he would wreak his revenge on the Kurds of northern Iraq and Shia Muslims in the south, she claimed.

"If Saddam punishes us for siding with Britain and the US, I think that Britain, the US and the UN would be responsible for the death of millions of people in Iraq."

Members of the UN Security Council were responsible for selling weapons of mass destruction to Saddam over many years, and France's opposition to war appeared to be motivated in part by the hope of securing commercial contracts with the regime, she said.

"These people are asking for war," said MP Ann Clwyd, chairman of the Parliamentary Human Rights Group and vice-chairman of the Parliamentary Labour Party. "They think it is the only way to overthrow Saddam. I have to agree with them."

12 March 2003

[palmer]

Your evidence is hardly overwhelming. Mostly old war crimes committed during the time when we, at the very least, looked the other way. The rest are "stories" or routine for the Middle East. It is not surprising that keeping an ethnic minority in absolute power requires such ruthlessness.

But Saddam's ruthlessness is not a reason for us to attack and should not be part of any debate over war.

[SerpentDove]

Yeah, but what did Iraq do to US???

— Susan Sarandon

[palmer]

Am I supposed to have sympathy for people under dictatorships and support wars to "free" them? Sorry, no. One case in point: we were told to sympathize with Albanians being ruthlessly killed by a Serbian dictator. But the truth was the Albanians were more ruthless than the Serbs and were allied, at least philosophically, with the 9/11 terrorists.

[k2blader]

I see it as all interconnected. That Saddam *is* evil is merely the starting point.

[Billthedrill]

Of course you're supposed to have sympathy for people living under ruthless dictatorships, and you do. LOL! Don't try to sell me that you don't, I know better. You do have an intolerance for exaggerated stories, and so do I.

But this is one of the central moral dilemmas of the 20th century - what do you do when the stories turn out to be true? At what point are you morally obligated to stop the evil despite the fact that it isn't pointed at you personally...yet? The Jews-in-the-camps simile has been cited so often it's nearly cant by now but it is not inappropriate - at what point does that sort of thing justify outside intervention in and of itself? Ever? Never?

I don't like the "never" answer - it smacks of a moral certitude that prefers logical consistency to humanity. That certitude would have us ignore the grossest barbarities and I do not think we can follow that course and remain human beings; its opposite would have us meddling on principle every time our sensibilities are bruised, not an uncommon occurrence in the real world, and is equally prone to error. The middle ground is a judgment call, and is the reason we need brains and moral sense to act as stewards of the power we now find in our hands.

The consensus after WWII (and, incidentally, the main impetus for founding the UN) was that yes, at least in the case of genocide there is justification for outside intervention by otherwise disinterested parties. Perhaps there are other brutalities so gross as to invoke that same codicil. We need to think about this carefully before we use it to justify the killing of other human beings, but that isn't a "never" answer.

[GOPJ]

I want out of the UN. Toss the double parkers, the goons, the elitist, and tell them to go home. Good bye and good riddance to the UN.

And Saddam's special adviser, Barzan al-Tikriti – Iraq's former representative on the UN Commission on Human Rights – had personally tortured detainees before their execution.

[RummyChick]

Yeah, fargo was a true story too. I love Steve Buscemi. Another weirdo like Christopher Walken

[Calpernia]

>>>>>Saddam may not have any WMD, that he probably has no effective delivery mechanisms even short range ones....I certainly know that they are the only issues that matter

Here, I can help you with that.

http://www.iraqwatch.org/search/search_db.asp?sc=enduser&qu=russia&sm=exact

[k2blader]

Hrum, what kind of article do you intend to publish, and in what context would the quote be used?

Please feel free to FReepmail.

... No worries, I'm not a lawyer ... ;-)

[Byron deVilliers]

One and the same. Got proof to the contrary?

You don't.

Either do I. As it stands, by narrative is every bit as plausible as yours.

Intelligence agencies use so-called 'journalists' all the time.....

[veronica]

Saddam will get his. Between our new MOAB (the mother of all bombs) and our allies the Brits...Britain 'to play full role in Iraq invasion'...it's only a matter of time. ;)

[knak]

Do you think he destroyed them all after the first inspection team left or what?

[Calpernia]

>>>>Note the source.

You are right. Let me see. A daughter of a guy with a political ax to grind. Countless Iraqi Nationals here as refugees with similar types of stories. Then, let's consider a brief bio of SH, shall we?

A son of a poor peasant, Saddam attempted
assassination of the Prime Minister of Iraq and was charged and sentenced to death at the age of 20. Escaping from the prison, he became a rebellious leader, and consequently the military President of the Republic of Iraq.

April 28, 1937
Born in Tikrit, Iraq.

1956
Joined the Arab Baath Socialist Party.

1959
Attempted assassination of Iraqi Prime Minister Qasim.
Arrested for six-months.

1960
Sentenced to death.
Escaped to Syria and later to Egypt.

1962-63
Studied law in Cairo, but left it incomplete.

1963
Elected member of Baath Party in Iraq.

1964
Arrested for charges of rebelling against the regime.

September 1966
Elected Deputy Secretary General of Baath Party Leadership in Iraq, while in prison.

1967
Escaped from Prison.

July 1968
Coup against Iraq’s President and overthrew the regime.

1969
Elected the Vice-chairman of the Revolution Command Council.

1972
Nationalized oil companies.

1977
Elected Assistant Secretary General of National Pan-Arab Leadership of Baath Party.

July 16, 1979
Elected as the Chairman of RCC and as the President of Iraq.

1980
Attacked the oil-reserves of Iran, and initiated the Iran-Iraq war.

1988
Cease-fire between Iran and Iraq.

August 2, 1990
Seized Kuwait.

January 16, 1991
America led air troops began bombing Baghdad.

February 1991
The Persian Gulf War ended by declaration of cease-fire by US President George Bush.

1996
Accepted the ‘Oil for Food’ program, proposed by the UN Security Council.

1997
Makes contact with Osama Bin Laden and sets up training camps for Al Qaeda in Baghdad.

You are right. It is a toss up. His creds are outstanding. There can't be one 'shred' of truth to what any of these Iraqi Nationals say!

[dighton]

A.M., we have a sleeper Varmint Cong. Please see #s 33 and 50.

[Byron deVilliers]

Thanks for the amateur psychology. Biographical parallels don't really make the case unless we accept your vague terms as actually describing identitical phenomena.....

For instance:

"both ended up as minor functionaries in revolutionary parties."

So what? That describes any number of people. Millions in fact....

"Both suborned the leadership of those parties, both moved over several more likely rivals to assume leadership."

Name a president, prime minister, or other leader who hasn't.

"Both systematically killed the rivals."

I suppose, then, that Robbespierre was just like Stalin. And so were the American revolutionary militias led by those who would become 'the Founding Fathers'...


"Both set up huge systems of policing, internal spying, denunciation, imprisonment without trial, internal prison camps."

Sounds like the good ol' USA at this particular moment.....


"Both eliminated other political parties by mass killing."

And American troops killing Iraqis (political opponents) is different how?

It's all in the narrative, friend....

[Byron deVilliers]

Thanks for the amateur psychology. Biographical parallels don't really make the case unless we accept your vague terms as actually describing identitical phenomena.....

For instance:

"both ended up as minor functionaries in revolutionary parties."

So what? That describes any number of people. Millions in fact....

"Both suborned the leadership of those parties, both moved over several more likely rivals to assume leadership."

Name a president, prime minister, or other leader who hasn't.

"Both systematically killed the rivals."

I suppose, then, that Robbespierre was just like Stalin. And so were the American revolutionary militias led by those who would become 'the Founding Fathers'...


"Both set up huge systems of policing, internal spying, denunciation, imprisonment without trial, internal prison camps."

Sounds like the good ol' USA at this particular moment.....


"Both eliminated other political parties by mass killing."

And American troops killing Iraqis (political opponents) is different how?

It's all in the narrative, friend....

[Byron deVilliers]

"You are right. It is a toss up. His creds are outstanding. There can't be one 'shred' of truth to what any of these Iraqi Nationals say!"

Don't put words in my mouth. I didn't present an alternative theory of what was 'true' and 'not true'. I simply pointed out that stories like these are quite easy to fabricate and disseminate....

[lawgirl]

I think I am going to throw up.

[Byron deVilliers]

What's that that Billthedrill was saying about 'denunciation' etc.?

Dighton, ol' friend, you'd be the first to join up for the Thought Police....

Wait, it's already too late.....

[dighton]

Dighton, ol' friend ...

A**hole, I'm not your friend.