Gallup Poll: Americans' Opinions of France, Germany and North Korea Drop to New Lows

Gallop News Service ^ | 2/10/2003 | Frank Newport

[happygrl]

Go do your own research. Anyone who has followed European culture, including church attendance and polls indicating beliefs in standard Christian doctrines, is aware that Europe is NOT a Christian continent, not by the standards of belief or practice.

Christianity is not an inherited religion. It is a practiced religion.

Having a Baptisimal certificate is not evidence that one is a Christian.

The fact that you are unaware of the spiritual state of Europe is an indication that you are not a practicing Christian. I don't have the time or inclination to search the web to prove something to someone who is obviously so uneducated on the subject. I suggest googling some poll takers on religion for a start.

For anyone familiar with Europe, my statement is not controversial at all.

[truth_seeker]

"Go do your own research."

I already did. I lived in Germany. My wife and I have near cousins, in three countries. I have also long lived in the US.

I am old and wise enough, to not fall for every statement or contention that I see. That includes yours.

I asked you to support two statements. You supported neither, while claiming they were supportable.

You know nothing of me, of my religion, or lack thereof. Yet you jump to such a rash conclusion, that I am not a "practicing" Christian.

In your view, how would I demonstrate to you a sufficiently high degree of "practice" as to qualify? I am genuinely curious, and would like your answer.

[happygrl]

I will give you my reply.

My assumption was based on the fact that you are unaware of the decline of Christianity in Europe. Christians of my aquaintance, who have a genuine interest and concern for the state of Christendom in the world, are aware that very few Europeans are church goers, that, when queried as to the basic doctrines of the faith, do not profess belief, and do not see their faith as a vital part of their identification. That is my answer. There are those in this country who fit into that category as well. There are also those who are church attenders, but who don't have a concern or vision for the rest of the world. Perhaps that is where you fit in, I don't know; this may be new information to you. That is why I state that the decline of Christianity in Europe is common knowledge and not controversial at all. That is one of the identifiers of the difference between the U.S. and Europe, that we are an industrialized nation with vital religious belief and practice, which is more typical of developing countries. It has even been given a term: "American exceptualism".

As for practice and what are the minimums to qualify, I would just reiterate that it is not based on occassional rituals or obligations, but on a living faith, that is as important as breathing. I would not dispute that there are those in Europe who live in this way, but they are much fewer than those proportionally in the U.S.

Europe is often described as a secular culture. It is far more leftist, and has substituted this utopian politics for religion, in the same way that the leftist/liberals in this country are far less likely to practice faith. Hopefully I have answered your question. I did not mean to insult you, but these facts about Europe are commonly known to conservatives.

[happygrl]

One more thought. My answer applied to what has recently been termed "Old Europe". It does not apply to such countries as Poland which is notable for its faith. Perhaps that is where you have experience of Europe.

[truth_seeker]

"One more thought. My answer applied to what has recently been termed "Old Europe". It does not apply to such countries as Poland which is notable for its faith.

Perhaps that is where you have experience of Europe."

I stated I lived in Germany. We have Catholic cousins, in Italy, and protestant cousins in Sweden, Scotland and Canada. I have Mormon cousins in the US.

I'm quite surprised that after taking a broad sweep at Europe, you decided it was necessary to narrow down your area for condemnation.

You still have not supported the contention, that Europe is now non-Christian. You keep repeating it is "common knowledge."

If such knowledge is so common, surely you'd find it simple to provide a reference.

Similarly, I'm surprised to learn you know the hearts and minds of so many Europeans, as to conclude that they generally don't hold views sufficiently strong for you.

When the yoke of communism was lifted, it was a welcome fact that many quickly returned to traditional religious practices.

As for "Old Europe" versus some other grouping, it seems this phrase only came into use recently, by Rumsfeld, as a means of being critical of France and Germany for failure to lock-step support the foreign policy of America.

You have quickly adopted it to ALSO identify which nations are no longer sufficiently Christian, to meet some as yet undefined threshhold for being Christian.

Italy, Denmark and others have recently elected conservative governments. Does one conclude from this, that they have become more Christian?

I'll concede to you that there may be statistics supporting your contention. But you seem to utilize a form of debate, by which I'm to just take your word for it.

FYI I consider myself a non-denominational Christian, for I find most denominations expect to foist upon me their own interpretations.

I direct you to Emmet Fox, for interpretaions of the true meanings of Christian life and beliefs, which make sense for me.

As for the underpinnings of American government and laws, I adhere to the historic fact that influential founders were deists, which was consistent with the idea that no official, state endorsed religion would hold suppremacy.

I happen to classify Roman Catholics as Christians. Many Europeans follow that faith. In your view, does the "socialism" of modern church political policy opinions by that church, render them all non Christian, or not sufficiently "conservative?"