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Why Britain needs more guns
BBC News ^ | January 15, 2003 | Joyce L Malcolm

Posted on 01/15/2003 2:36:23 AM PST by MadIvan

As gun crime leaps by 35% in a year, plans are afoot for a further crack down on firearms. Yet what we need is more guns, not fewer, says a US academic.

"If guns are outlawed," an American bumper sticker warns, "only outlaws will have guns." With gun crime in Britain soaring in the face of the strictest gun control laws of any democracy, the UK seems about to prove that warning prophetic.

For 80 years the safety of the British people has been staked on the premise that fewer private guns means less crime, indeed that any weapons in the hands of men and women, however law-abiding, pose a danger.

Government assured Britons they needed no weapons, society would protect them. If that were so in 1920 when the first firearms restrictions were passed, or in 1953 when Britons were forbidden to carry any article for their protection, it no longer is.

The failure of this general disarmament to stem, or even slow, armed and violent crime could not be more blatant. According to a recent UN study, England and Wales have the highest crime rate and worst record for "very serious" offences of the 18 industrial countries surveyed.

But would allowing law-abiding people to "have arms for their defence", as the 1689 English Bill of Rights promised, increase violence? Would Britain be following America's bad example?

Old stereotypes die hard and the vision of Britain as a peaceable kingdom, America as "the wild west culture on the other side of the Atlantic" is out of date. It is true that in contrast to Britain's tight gun restrictions, half of American households have firearms, and 33 states now permit law-abiding citizens to carry concealed weapons.

But despite, or because, of this, violent crime in America has been plummeting for 10 consecutive years, even as British violence has been rising. By 1995 English rates of violent crime were already far higher than America's for every major violent crime except murder and rape.

You are now six times more likely to be mugged in London than New York. Why? Because as common law appreciated, not only does an armed individual have the ability to protect himself or herself but criminals are less likely to attack them. They help keep the peace. A study found American burglars fear armed home-owners more than the police. As a result burglaries are much rarer and only 13% occur when people are at home, in contrast to 53% in England.

Much is made of the higher American rate for murder. That is true and has been for some time. But as the Office of Health Economics in London found, not weapons availability, but "particular cultural factors" are to blame.

A study comparing New York and London over 200 years found the New York homicide rate consistently five times the London rate, although for most of that period residents of both cities had unrestricted access to firearms.

When guns were available in England they were seldom used in crime. A government study for 1890-1892 found an average of one handgun homicide a year in a population of 30 million. But murder rates for both countries are now changing. In 1981 the American rate was 8.7 times the English rate, in 1995 it was 5.7 times the English rate, and by last year it was 3.5 times. With American rates described as "in startling free-fall" and British rates as of October 2002 the highest for 100 years the two are on a path to converge.

The price of British government insistence upon a monopoly of force comes at a high social cost.

First, it is unrealistic. No police force, however large, can protect everyone. Further, hundreds of thousands of police hours are spent monitoring firearms restrictions, rather than patrolling the streets. And changes in the law of self-defence have left ordinary people at the mercy of thugs.

According to Glanville Williams in his Textbook of Criminal Law, self-defence is "now stated in such mitigated terms as to cast doubt on whether it still forms part of the law".

Nearly a century before that American bumper sticker was slapped on the first bumper, the great English jurist, AV Dicey cautioned: "Discourage self-help, and loyal subjects become the slaves of ruffians." He knew public safety is not enhanced by depriving people of their right to personal safety.

Joyce Lee Malcolm, professor of history, is author of Guns and Violence: The English Experience, published in June 2002.


TOPICS: Crime/Corruption; Editorial; Foreign Affairs; Government; News/Current Events; United Kingdom
KEYWORDS: banglist; guns; laws; uk
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I'm astonished an article of such honesty is appearing on the BBC website.

Regards, Ivan


1 posted on 01/15/2003 2:36:23 AM PST by MadIvan
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To: *bang_list; SunnyUsa; Delmarksman; Sparta; Toirdhealbheach Beucail; TopQuark; TexKat; ...
Bump!
2 posted on 01/15/2003 2:36:44 AM PST by MadIvan
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To: MadIvan
The 1689 Bill of Rights:
http://www.constitution.org/eng/eng_bor.htm

The exact quote is "That the subjects which are Protestants may have arms for their defence suitable to their conditions and as allowed by law"
3 posted on 01/15/2003 2:50:54 AM PST by gd124
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To: MadIvan
Perhaps England is fortunate they are on an island with a strong Navy. Otherwise, Hitler would have had little trouble marching his army through that unarmed country.
4 posted on 01/15/2003 2:58:15 AM PST by SamAdams76
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To: SamAdams76
The olfactory sense alerts to the aroma of coffee.
5 posted on 01/15/2003 3:05:55 AM PST by Check6
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To: SamAdams76
The disarming was a recent knee-jerk reaction to school slayings. Had nothing to do with the 30's-40's.
6 posted on 01/15/2003 3:14:00 AM PST by Eagles2003
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To: Eagles2003
But the article clearly states that the disarming of citizens began in 1920.
7 posted on 01/15/2003 3:15:38 AM PST by SamAdams76
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To: MadIvan
You are now six times more likely to be mugged in London than New York. Why? Because as common law appreciated, not only does an armed individual have the ability to protect himself or herself but criminals are less likely to attack them. They help keep the peace.

Well, Duhhhh!!!

8 posted on 01/15/2003 3:19:51 AM PST by bullseye1911 (I be edumacated)
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To: MadIvan; All
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/711949/posts Do Guns Save Lives?

-Empty-Barrel Gun Policies-A legacy of nonsense from Clinton, Blair, and the Left--

-A Problem With Guns (Long... but SOOOO good)--

Shooting More Holes in Gun Control

Gun Control Down Under

HCI Aussie Style (read it and weep-or laugh)

The Great Australian Gun Law CON!

British Gun Crime Soars

Gun Crimes Surge in London

Canadian Gun Control Has Little Impact on Crime (Home Gun Confiscation/Resisters)

Through the Looking Glass and Back Again - From Anti-gunner to Firearms Instructor in Four Months


Swiss Gun Laws- and some rebuttal to HCI "spin"-- Thread II

Statistical Facts Gun-haters Run From

9 posted on 01/15/2003 3:25:16 AM PST by backhoe (Has that Clinton "legacy" made you feel safer yet?)
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To: MadIvan
Comments from the original article:

With around 30,000 gun deaths a year, I think we should look elsewhere than the US for ideas on this subject. More legally-owned guns means more chances for accidental deaths in the home from guns, more teenagers finding their parents' guns and playing with them, more chances for legal guns to be stolen by criminals to be used by criminals.
R K Bulmer, UK

I'd rather, if my granny were to be mugged, that she had the choice to pull out her purse, or her .45 Magnum. She's a little too old to learn kung-fu, or to run away. She may well hand her purse over anyway, but at least she has the choice. Criminals carry guns anyway, so it's about time the rest of the population had the same choice.
Sid, UK

I can't see the average British citizen wanting to take pot shots at potential muggers, however a right to self defence, not something chewed to incoherence by the lawyers, would do more to restore people's respect for the law than a personal armoury - that and more police to investigate existing crimes.
Andy, UK

I'm an expat living in Texas, where we all as citizens have a right to carry guns. I do not personally carry a weapon, but criminals do not know that. That is a deterrent. I am armed to the teeth at home in my "castle". Criminals have a question they ask themselves when they think about approaching a house out in the country: Is that family armed or not? More than likely they are.
And Barnett, Texas, US

I find this notion ludicrous. We do not need a nation of armed vigilantes (potential or otherwise) to ensure the peace, but rather active citizens who are willing to stand together against crime in their neighborhoods and cooperate with local authorities to apprehend criminals. This is the way to reduce crime. To draw a link between gun ownership and an overall drop in crime in the US is spurious and the article does not have enough evidence to point to a causative relationship between the two.
Sean Aaron

It is clear that the knee jerk reaction after Dunblane has achieved precisely nothing except reduce our chances of any sporting shooting success. The politicians have consistently read this matter wrongly. Perhaps it is time to give the academics a chance?
Alan Preddy, UK

Allowing homeowners to arm themselves will simply encourage potential burglars to arm themselves, and I don't particularly want to get into a gunfight for a colour television.
Mike, UK

This is like saying that raising the speed limit in built-up areas will cut pedestrian deaths since cars will spend less time passing through.
J, UK

Rarely do we get to hear such a flimsy argument based on misused and easily quoted statistics as Prof. Malcolm's. More avaliability of firearms in the UK would bring us more Dunblanes and perhaps a Columbine.
J.Canning, UK

Can you imagine the number of mistakes, accidents, acts of temporary insanity, etc. that would result from having guns freely available? I wonder what the police think of this crazy idea - what policeman would dare to investigate a "domestic quarrel" call, not knowing what firepower he might face?
Gordon, Canada,

More guns in the UK would mean less crime. If crimnals fear the use of firearms by citizens then they will be less likly to committe an offense. People should have the right to own firearms as well as carry them in the UK.
Ian, UK
10 posted on 01/15/2003 3:33:37 AM PST by gd124
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To: Mercuria
bump!
11 posted on 01/15/2003 3:33:40 AM PST by Schnucki
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To: MadIvan
Bump to read later
12 posted on 01/15/2003 3:35:22 AM PST by NY.SS-Bar9
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To: MadIvan
Outstanding Ivan!
13 posted on 01/15/2003 3:42:56 AM PST by RaceBannon
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To: gd124
I find this notion ludicrous. We do not need a nation of armed vigilantes (potential or otherwise) to ensure the peace, but rather active citizens who are willing to stand together against crime in their neighborhoods and cooperate with local authorities to apprehend criminals. This is the way to reduce crime. To draw a link between gun ownership and an overall drop in crime in the US is spurious and the article does not have enough evidence to point to a causative relationship between the two. Sean Aaron

:He sniffed, pretentiously.

14 posted on 01/15/2003 3:44:18 AM PST by bullseye1911
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To: MadIvan
Other posts on this issue noted that if you remove black on black murders (mostly gang related) the murder rate in the US is well below the UK now and was about the same before.

It is more a cultural issue than anything else. Immigration has brought in a culture that does not follow the old rules. But you will never see that in the Brit press (or ours, for that matter).
15 posted on 01/15/2003 3:50:41 AM PST by KeyWest
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To: bullseye1911
I know this happened a couple of years ago but the farmer is still in jail.

British farmer sentenced to life in prison for shooting to death a burglar who broke into his farmhouse. Another burglar was injured. Sentence finally reduced to man slaughter on appeal on grounds of his mental state and he is serving five years. Family of burglar attempting to sue "murderer."

"He was depicted as the ordinary man who, plagued by burglars and let down by the police, had struck back but was now being persecuted for his actions."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/martin/article/0,2763,583540,00.html

More about the case (including article on injured burglar suing the farmer for loss of earnings... I guess it's kind of difficult to rob homes after being shot in the legs and groin...) at:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/martin/0,2759,214318,00.html
16 posted on 01/15/2003 4:14:34 AM PST by hotpotato
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To: KeyWest
>> Other posts on this issue noted that if you remove black on black murders (mostly gang related) the murder rate in the US is well below the UK now and was about the same before. <<


Britain also has a black population. And a large number of immigrants. This argument puzzles me ("the US has a lot of shootings but if you take the black factor out of it, we don't have as many"). ???
17 posted on 01/15/2003 4:27:45 AM PST by hotpotato (female gun owner)
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To: bullseye1911
, but rather active citizens who are willing to stand together against crime in their neighborhoods

Stand together to what end? Any criminal with a gun can control any number of citizens "standing together" if they are not armed and it is illegal in England to carry so much as a yardstick if an authority figure thinks you might hit someone with it.

18 posted on 01/15/2003 5:04:51 AM PST by arthurus
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19 posted on 01/15/2003 5:44:42 AM PST by Mo1 (Join the DC Chapter at the Patriots Rally III on 1/18/03)
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To: MadIvan
Nice article! Too bad it is totally irrelevant. The chances that the Brit government would condescend to let its serfs own the means of self defense are zero and none since it it obvious that in Britain (as well as a number of liberal jurisdictions in the USA) self defense is considered a much more serious crime by the government and the police than is assault, robbery, burgulary, and murder.
20 posted on 01/15/2003 5:48:01 AM PST by from occupied ga
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