Tolkien’s Clash of Civilizations

National Review Online ^ | December 18, 2002 | Rod Dreher

[Luis Gonzalez]

I saw it this morning, I am still all caught up in the movie, hours later.

It's simply the best movie that I have ever seen.

Magnificent.

I would have sat through a second showing of it in a heart beat.

[Maigret]

1. I was always under the impression that the "two towers" were Minas Tirith and Minas Morgul (Ithil), not Isengard and Barad-dûr.

I'm afraid your impression is wrong, I just read the Two Towers and it most definitely is Orthanc and Barad-dur that are referred to.

[Elenya]

Saw it again today. I'm even more in awe than after the first viewing. The second time around, I didn't have the "switching the channels" feeling I had the first time. Every element of the plot seemed to be perfectly paced. PJ is a genius. Everything in the movie is perfectly timed and relevant. I'm still in shock. I'm so grateful they come out during the christmas season. What a gift! Already planning my third viewing this week.

[sweetliberty]

"orcs=liberal riff raff?"

LOL! Works for me.

[Elenya]

it most definitely is Orthanc and Barad-dur that are referred to.

If I'm not mistaken, Tolkien was actually referring to Minas Tirith and Minas Morgul but it's the publisher who took it to be a reference to Orthanc and Barad-dur. And it stayed that way.

[Mamzelle]

re:I've been considering reading the books, but I'd have to get them away from my son first.)))

Get extra copies! You're going to wear out the first set, anyway.

\ re:If someone comes on here and says they are a Tolkien Ph.D, and they believe that Tolkien would have thought the WTC was a Symbol of Tyranny, then I will have to revise my view of Tolkien downward. )))

IMO--Tolkein was an intense scholar, and likely, as most scholars, to be dismissive of technologies and industry that just didn't fit into his notions of an ideal world. They don't call it "ivory tower" for nothing--professors can be like so many Rapunzels. I think he might have thought the WTC grand, but may have also have been leery of its bustle and noise.

[ninenot]

Whatever is the world coming to? First, the wave of Gregorian Chant CD's selling millions.

Now, a movie based on a Good vs. Evil book written by an orthodox Roman Catholic.

What next? Millions cheering the Pope in...no, that happened. Well, ah..

I KNOW!! a Crusade!!! How about we meet in Baghdad??

[Miss Marple]

I thought it was the best movie I have ever seen, too. I didn't expect they would top "The Fellowship of the Ring," but they did.

I really appreciated that they didn't do a synopsis at the beginning, and there were so many things I thoght were outstanding that I can't list them.

A tiny detail was the very elfin and unusual way Legolas mounted a horse in the midst of a battle. Did you happen to notice that?

[Luis Gonzalez]

"A tiny detail was the very elfin and unusual way Legolas mounted a horse in the midst of a battle."

THAT WAS AMAZING!

[Luis Gonzalez]

Treebeard rocked!

[Miss Marple]

I swear, Luis, I am going to see the movie again just to see that!! I can't even explain it! Sheer magic!

[Miss Marple]

Did the Ent meeting remind you of the UN?

[ninenot]

he was principled in his defense of core western values.

I think you misunderstand Dreher--or "core" values of the West.

Dreher's analogy has to do with the materialism loosely represented by the WTC. Understand that the American culture is not exactly unalloyed goodness: one needs only recall Madonna, Bill Clinton, and other such dreck to understand that there are quite a few people around the world who legitimately question the crass materialism and demi-pornographic sensuality exported from this country.

Neither of these are "core" Western values, nor is the at times un-seemly projection of power utilized by the USA (either military or economic) for questionable ends. (Think the mess in Kosovo.)

Dreher's allegory might be more complete were he to reference the other targets on 9/11: the US military in the Pentagon, and the US Government in (the White House? the Capitol?), also targets of the terrorists.

Neither Dreher, nor you, nor I, can possibly justify the murder of innocents. But Dreher's thesis holds water, I think. Of course, if you are a slightly daft Muslim, then you act on your worst suspicions. Kill the infidels.

[Luis Gonzalez]

Naw, the UN wouldn't have acted at all.

[AnAmericanMother]

Small trampoline off camera.

When I was young and very foolish, we used to get on our ponies via trampoline.

Unless the pony moved, or we miscalculated the jump, and pulled a "Gimli" by overshooting and landing on the other side.

Why nobody ever got kicked is a mystery to me. As Norman Thelwell said, don't waste your time trying to think up new ways of getting into the saddle . . . you'll find plenty of new ways to LEAVE it . . . :D

[Defiant]

I understand that Tolkien had an idealized and romanticized notion of northern European mythology. But would he have considered the WTC a symbol of tyranny, or instead a symbol of something that connotes sadness for a way of life lost (e.g., the blandness of modern sheep-like man)? That's where I think Dreher goes too far.

The Empire State Building was erected in the 20's, during Tolkien's lifetime. Is there any evidence that he wrote about such man-made towers and their significance?

[fatima]

Bump