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The BATF is not bound to respond, leaving people in legal limbo: without a decision, they can't go to the court to seek relief, and the BATF isn't forced to hear the case.
1 posted on 12/10/2002 12:22:01 PM PST by coloradan
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2 posted on 12/10/2002 12:22:22 PM PST by coloradan
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To: coloradan
Seems to me that's a clear infringement on the RIGHT to keep and bear arms..
3 posted on 12/10/2002 12:28:24 PM PST by FormerLurker
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To: coloradan
Another anti-gun decision by the courts. If SCOTUS supports the recent 9th Circuit decision, it means an internal war - gun owners against the govt. This is what the Second Amendment was meant for, no?
4 posted on 12/10/2002 12:34:35 PM PST by etcetera
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To: coloradan
The way the law now reads, if you are convicted of any felony in any country, i.e. evangelizing in Saudi Arabia, you can be denied your 2nd Amendment right.
8 posted on 12/10/2002 12:45:24 PM PST by Blood of Tyrants
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To: coloradan
Supreme Court Looks At Restoring Gun Rights

by Larry Margasak Associated Press WASHINGTON — Oct. 16, 2002

Thomas Lamar Bean's associates left 200 rounds of ammunition in his car during a dinner visit to Mexico four years ago, costing the Texan jail time and his gun dealer's license.

A federal appeals court ordered that Bean's license be reinstated, but the Bush administration, despite its pro-gun stance, was arguing before the Supreme Court on Wednesday that judges can't restore gun rights to convicted felons.

Bean's lawyer counters that he had no choice but to go to court, since the federal agency that rules on license restorations has been barred by Congress from doing so.

Lawmakers took that action a decade ago, out of concern that too many felons were regaining the right to own guns.

The trouble started for Bean, a businessman with a clean record, when at least one of his assistants failed to follow instructions to remove the bullets from his car prior to a dinner trip to Mexico.

When Bean and his three associates tried to return to Laredo, Mexican border authorities discovered the bullets and detained only Bean. Since carrying ammunition was a crime in Mexico, Bean was held for two months and sentenced to five years in prison. After serving four months in Mexico, he was transferred to a prison in Texas and quickly released on probation.

Bean was a convicted felon and could not even possess a firearm, let alone run a gun business - unless the Treasury Secretary granted an exception. The Treasury agency that handles such matters, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms, informed Bean that it could not process his application for a new license because Congress refused to provide money for restoration investigations.

Bean persuaded a federal district judge in Texas to restore the license, and in June 2001 the ruling was upheld by the 5th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals.

The Bush administration opposes the decision, even though the Justice Department has reversed a decades-old stance and taken the position that the Constitution guarantees a right to gun ownership. The administration argues, however, that the executive branch must make the determination since Congress did not grant courts the independent right to restore gun licenses.

The Bush administration has said the case was not about Bean, but other felons who would expect courts to restore their gun privileges.

In 2000, when he petitioned to get his gun rights - and livelihood - back, the 60-year-old father of two adult children was supported by two police chiefs, a sheriff, a judge, a prosecutor and a Baptist preacher.

Since Bean's conviction, Mexico has reduced the charges for importing ammunition to a misdemeanor. The federal judge who ruled in his favor on the gun privileges also found that the Mexican conviction did not classify him as a U.S. felon.

Other federal courts have agreed with the administration that judges should not be making the license decisions. And a Texas state court has determined that Bean is not considered a felon.

The case is United States v. Bean, 01-704.

9 posted on 12/10/2002 12:45:50 PM PST by 45Auto
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To: coloradan
The BATF is not bound to respond, leaving people in legal limbo: without a decision, they can't go to the court to seek relief, and the BATF isn't forced to hear the case.

It seems that we need to force Congress to fund this process.

10 posted on 12/10/2002 12:50:09 PM PST by dirtboy
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To: coloradan
Given the theory behind the case, I can see how this might be a Constitutionally correct decision. It seems to me that the real Constitutional problem is with the 1992 law, but the court wasn't asked to overturn the law itself, if I'm reading this properly.
11 posted on 12/10/2002 12:51:19 PM PST by Physicist
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To: coloradan
From the article: "Thomas rejected Bean's argument that the government's inability to act amounted to a denial of his request."

This is a disappointment of extreme magnitude.

Our government takes in trillions of dollars in taxes and is suffering from no "inability" to act. They have been proscribed by a lack of specific Congressional funding which is intended to have the observed consequences. For Thomas to allow such an Orwellian decision is a surprise to me. I will have to read the decision in great detail but I am not encouraged by how this is being reported.

I had hoped that the Supreme Court would find that the right to keep and bear arms does not stop at our borders. Those who distribute Bibles in China risk having the US Supreme Court helping China to punish such behavior.

The rights with which we are endowed by our Creator are not stamped "Made in America." The right to self-defense and the right to overthrow a tyrannical government are the rights of people everywhere and not just in the US.

12 posted on 12/10/2002 12:52:33 PM PST by William Tell
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To: coloradan
Justice Clarence Thomas (news - web sites) said the appeals court was wrong. Under the law, judicial review was allowed only after an actual denial by the ATF, Thomas said.

He said judicial review cannot occur without a decision by the agency. Thomas rejected Bean's argument that the government's inability to act amounted to a denial of his request.

Thomas fails the sanity test with this argument. SCOTUS is supposed to resolve Catch-22s, not validate them.

14 posted on 12/10/2002 12:53:57 PM PST by dirtboy
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To: coloradan
Felons are barred from carrying guns after their release from prison, but they can ask the government for an exception.

I think a better challenge would be against this law. Someone is convicted of a STATE felony, yet the feds can act against them at the FEDERAL level. That amounts an additional sentence not covered by the state law, outside the state court.

19 posted on 12/10/2002 12:57:00 PM PST by dirtboy
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To: coloradan
DISBAND THE ATF!!!

This is perfect example of the American Beaurocratic axiom that a beaurocracy, once created, never dies, it only gets bigger, hungrier and more intrusive and arrogant.

The great Ronald Reagan had once tried to eliminate this agency and failed.

We have local police, state police, park police, sheriff's officers, the FBI and the CIA. We don't need these loosers.
They are the closest thing possible to a federal police force and the fact that they pursue a personal political agenda separate from that of the elected Administration is scary. They are a bunch of jack-booted fascists.

Get rid of them - NOW!

(Instead of importing ammunition to Mexico, Bean should have imported saltpeter or condoms - they might have done more good!!)
23 posted on 12/10/2002 1:05:52 PM PST by ZULU
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To: coloradan
The following is from a post on a thread when the SCOTUS hearing was scheduled......
U.S. Supreme Court To Hear Bean Case (2nd Amendment Rights restoration case)


A little more info on this case and the Treaty allowing for the transfer of Bean to the American Penal System.....

The following is an excerpt from the 5th Circuit Court of Appeals dated June 20, 2001


BACKGROUND 

The facts of this case illustrate in caps underscored why Congress added the relief provision to the Federal Firearms Act, giving certain convicted felons an avenue to regain the right to possess a firearm. They are set forth in great detail in the trial court's opinion; we merely summarize them here. 

In March 1998, Bean, a Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms licensed firearms dealer, was in Laredo, Texas, participating in a gun show. One evening he and three assistants decided to cross the border into Mexico for dinner. He directed his assistants to remove any firearms and ammunition from his vehicle, a Chevrolet Suburban, before crossing the border; however, a box of ammunition containing approximately 200 rounds inadvertently was left in the back. The box was in plain view and Mexican customs officers saw it when they sought to enter the Mexican Port of Entry at Nuevo Laredo, Tamaulipas, Mexico. At the time importing ammunition into Mexico was considered a felony.(1) The three assistants were subsequently released but Bean, as the owner of the Suburban and the ammunition, was charged and convicted of the felony of unlawfully importing ammunition.(2) 

Bean was incarcerated in Mexico for approximately six months before being released to the custody of the United States under the International Prisoner Transfer Treaty. He thereafter spent another month in federal prison before being released under supervision. As a convicted felon, under 18 U.S.C. § 922(g)(1) Bean lost all rights to possess firearms. Section 925(c) of the statute, however, provides a means for relief from the firearms disabilities. Upon completion of his period of supervision in July, 1999, Bean petitioned the BATF for such relief so that he might return to his business. 

 The district court, in its detailed Memorandum Opinion, discussed the statute, congressional actions, the various circuit opinions on this issue, including our decision in United States v. McGill,(4) and determined that it did, in fact, have jurisdiction to hear Bean's appeal. In granting Bean's petition it further found that the facts of this case underscore why § 925(c) permitted not only judicial review, but judicial supplementation of the record to prevent a miscarriage of justice. 



It appears Congress had/has specifically stopped the use of funds for the ATF to allow the reinstatement of rights.... Thus Bean went the court route when denied by the ATF due to limitations placed by Congress.

31 posted on 12/10/2002 1:27:30 PM PST by deport
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To: coloradan
C, This guy should sue the BATF, Treasury, and all heads of both groups for failing to do their constitutionally appointed duty. Marbury vs Madison should apply. Call out the lawyers for opinions. Peace and love, George.
32 posted on 12/10/2002 1:28:58 PM PST by George Frm Br00klyn Park
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To: coloradan
"Justice Clarence Thomas (news - web sites) said the appeals court was wrong. Under the law, judicial review was allowed only after an actual denial by the ATF, Thomas said. He said judicial review cannot occur without a decision by the agency. Thomas rejected Bean's argument that the government's inability to act amounted to a denial of his request."

So much for my good opinion of Clarence Thomas. What a neat ploy to remove people's rights. Simply de-fund the agency mechanism for action, then the rights are denied WITHOUT ANY AVENUE OF APPEAL, despite the fact that the law requiring such agency action remains on the books.

35 posted on 12/10/2002 1:35:09 PM PST by Wonder Warthog
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To: coloradan
A true travasty of justice.
43 posted on 12/10/2002 2:02:19 PM PST by chuknospam
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To: coloradan
Could have been worse, I suppose.
60 posted on 12/10/2002 2:44:32 PM PST by Saundra Duffy
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To: coloradan
How does the conviction of a US citizen by a corrupt and totally illegitimate mexican court, deprive an American of his constitutional Rights?
90 posted on 12/10/2002 4:37:09 PM PST by Mulder
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To: wardaddy
bttt
114 posted on 12/10/2002 6:17:17 PM PST by Travis McGee
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To: coloradan
Sorry but no law or gun consfication will keep me from owning one and if necessary using one.
118 posted on 12/10/2002 6:47:32 PM PST by Bommer
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To: coloradan
Thomas Bean, who was convicted in a Mexican court of importing ammunition into Mexico.

There has to be more to this story!

128 posted on 12/11/2002 12:23:02 AM PST by snodog
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