US Conservatives dispute Bush’s portrayal of Islam

AMSTERDAM, Netherlands (AP) -- Dozens of young, disenchanted Muslims in the Netherlands likely are being recruited by radical groups for suicide missions worldwide, a Dutch internal intelligence service report said Monday.

TELL HIM WHAT HE'S WON DON PARDOE!!!!

Along with Rex the seeing eye dog, you will also be receiving a biography on Helen Keller, plus....a book "Learning to Drive" by Ray Charles, and a piano with Braille keys on it but wait ...THERES MORE!....One year of free piano lessons to give you something to do while you enjoy your blindness.

Impressive debate. Your points are well taken. The person you are argueing with is not interested in facts or truth. But keep making the arguement because it is enlightening to those that are reading. You are up against a moral relativist. "There are really no differences.." blah blah. It sound slike surmans voice - very seductive - you almost think "maybe he is right" then someone says "read any headline from any Islamic newspaper" - or "consider any govt from any time that had islamic majority" or "read the Koran itself" - all pretty basic items - all point the same way - Islam is a religion of war, murder, rape, lies, deception and evil. Even their prophet Mohamed admitted he was possessed by Satan. That is what the "Satanic Verses" by Rushdie was all about - those Koran sections that Mohamed later says he was possessed by Satan when he wrote them - Anyway - arguing with this guy reminds me of Genesis 3 - and Matthew 4 - debates with a devil - but the difference is that public debates influenses the onlookers.

In both Genesis 3 and Matthew 4 - the adverseries approach is always questioning:

1) Has God REALLLLLYYYY said????

2) Add a word, change a word, delete a word

3) Change absolutes to maybe's/perhaps "ye shall die... lest ye die"

4) Change perhaps/lest's into absolutes - "if you were to dash your foot... throw yourself down"

5) Result? Its all very gray, very confusing and hard to understand ..so... do what you know is wrong. Believe what you know is a lie - its all very intellectual, very 1984, very elitist, very arrogant and very prideful.

As this is not a "live" chat format, I am not always around to immediately answer the questions. I, like most of you, have a job and a life that often requires me to leave FR for extended periods of time.

First of all, let me just say that I am a Christian (not a moral relativist as is later charged in this thread) and as such am not in the habit of attempting to find a reading of my holy text that would justify the slaughter of innocent people over questions of faith.

However, I also firmly believe that the Bible supports the institution of the Catholic Church as well as free will, the Trinity, the intercession of the saints, the perpetual virginity of Mary, and an anti-millennialist perspective on the end times. I highly doubt that such views would be considered a valid reading of Scripture by numerous people on this forum, perhaps yourself included. Without sidetracking this discussion into whether or not the Bible supports the Catholic position, I simply brought it up to illustrate the point that there are not monolithic and unquestioning interpretations of any given holy text.

I believe that the same is generally true when it comes to Islam. Muslims disagree about the meaning of the Qur'an on numerous topics, including those cited calling for the extermination of infidels. I notice that one of the suras that most Freepers seem particularly adverse to citing are such passages as the following:

"Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in God hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And God heareth and knoweth all things."

- Sura 2:56

"Say, 'The truth is from your Lord': Let him who will believe, and let him who will, reject (it): …"

- Sura 18:29

Just a thought on that one. So are the people who care to regard these verses as being more pertinent to their religion than those oh-so-frequently cited here somehow "lukewarm" or "lazy" as some have suggested. Based on what I've seen from our Turkish posters, I don't think so. They simply don't interpret the Qur'an as calling for them to go kill infidels anymore than a Protestant sees Jesus's injunction to Peter as proof of the papacy. I'm not claiming that all of these different opinions are equal, but to pretend that they don't exist strikes me as exceedingly foolish.

I saw the story from the Netherlands suicide squad the other day. They also fought for the Taliban which leads me to conclude that they're Wahhabi. And Wahhabism is a global scourge that needs to be defeated, as even Muslims like King Abdullah II, Sheikh Kabbani, Stephen Schwartz, Sheikh Palazzi, and Sheikh al-Ansari acknowledge.

First of all, this is all quite worthy of Jesse Jackson or Al Sharpton talking about Caucasians.

"Read islam's history, read even what the islamics have to say about their own history. Read the entire koran, and the haddith, do you even know the differences between the Mecca suras and the Medina suras?"

I'm afraid I'm not quite intellectually arrogant enough to claim to be an expert on a religion that spans from Morocco to Indonesia. Tell we, what atrocities did the Malaysian Muslims commit in the last 1,300 years? Or Uighurs?

As for the Qur'an, I've read it several times. Same thing with the Hadith. I'm quite familiar with the difference between the Mecca and Medina suras. I also know that there's a lot more to the Qur'an than the suras that I suspect more than a few Freepers have ready to cut and paste at a moments notice.

"Listen to what the imams are preaching, right now, in almost every mosque on earth."

Go to Tashkent sometime. Or Istanbul. Or Amman. Or Jakarta. You might be surprised. Give me the name of one modern extremist Islamic group, sect, or nation that is committing atrocities that isn't Wahhabi or Khomeinist and I'll happily shut up on this one.

"Look at the current, historical, and traditional ACTIONS of islam in nations where it is in control. Examine the methods islam used to gain control in these places."

I don't recall the Caliphate stretching to Malaysia, Indonesia (the largest Muslim country on the planet), the southern Philippines, West Africa, or Central Africa. Tell me, how exactly did Islam get there?

"Observe the ACTIONS of the vast majority of the islamic populations of the world, right now, whenever they are "upset", ie. the 'love and peace' expressed by islamics to non-islamics in Nigeria recently."

You mean like when the Nigerian Supreme Council for Islamic Affairs and the Jama'atul Nasril Islam condemned the governor of Zamfara for issuing the fatwa and said that it had no moral authority? Or when the (Muslim) Nigerian police arrested the Wahhabi Secretary-General Nafiu Baba Ahmed for his roll in formenting the riots?

Yeah, that happened.

"Try, really, really, hard to be honest to yourself first, when doing these little exercises. Because you can not be honest with others, if you are not honest with yourself."

You mean I should just jump on the bandwagon and call for the extermination of Muslims worldwide? Sieg Heil!

"Just because not all islamics are murdering monsters, does not mean that their creed, their dogma, is not an obscene cabal of filthy outrages. Hitler was nice to children, and liked dogs, does that make him any less of a sick, murdering, monster?"

So let me get this up front. Regular Muslims, even the non-violent kind, are the moral equivalent of Hitler simply because of their faith?

If you honestly believe that, then you might want to look in the mirror next time you talk about Arab anti-Semitism.

Islam is a cult and muslims are brainwashed

If you see an error in my statement, feel free to point them out.

Tell me about the great Muslim conquests of Malaysia, Indonesia, and the southern Philippines. Or tell me about the glory days when the Caliphate ruled West and Central Africa with an iron fist.

Or better yet, point out one act of Islamic terrorist or extremist violence on this planet that isn't being bankrolled by the Wahhabis or the Khomeinists.

You can go read yourself about the denunciation of the Nigerian fatwa and the arrest of the guy who inspired most of the violence in Zamfara. Just go to the BBC search engine and type in "Nigeria."

Then you can begin the long process of rationalization about how any Muslim claims that they aren't extremists are lies, lies, lies. It should make for a productive evening for one with a worldview resembling your own.

And tell you what, next time the Turks post, be sure to explain to them about how they're the moral equivalents of Adolf Hitler. And ping me when you do, because I can hardly wait to hear that discussion.

Uh-huh.

So do you stomp other people's skulls or your own?

I believe the prefered term is "kufr."

Also, Muslims can't have other Muslims as slaves, it's haraam under the sha'riah. That's why the Sudanese and Mauritanians are forced to rely on Christians to labor under their tyrannical dystopias.

More to the point, if you ever spoke with an Arab Christian, such as Joe Farrah, the Editor of WorldNetDaily (and certainly no friend of Islam), you'd learn that there are millions of Arab Christians who pray to God every night in Arabic. Guess what they call Him?

Good Post

Christians all over this world are being murdered in the name of Islam. Bush is losing respect of all people that can read. People are not as ignorant as Bush thinks.

bump

Catholics can come into the church or leave it as they choose, so there is just no comparision. Muslims who are born into a family that is Muslim, may not leave, and if they do, they are under the penalty of death. The penalty for denying Islam is death, and it is called "blasphemy".
One should not have to question if this is evil or not. I think it is evil to not allow one to live according to his conscience.

May I ask you a question? While I realize that the Pope of your religion supports Islam, have you ever looked at what Islam teaches regarding Jesus Christ?

They say that Jesus Christ is not the Son of God come in the flesh.

That creates a problem for your argument that they worship the same God as Christians.

1 John 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

1 John 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

2 John 1:7 ¶For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

It isn't hate to expose what a huge group of people believe. It's common sense.

"Kill the disbelievers wherever we find them" (Koran 2:191)

"Ye are the best of peoples evolved for mankind." (Koran 3:110)

"The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and his messenger and
strive after corruption in the land will be to be killed or crucified, or
have their hands and feet and genitals cut off, or to be expelled out of
the land. Such will be their humiliation in the world, and in the next
world they will face an awful horror." (Koran, 5:33-34)

"Not to make friendship with Jews and Christians" (Koran 5:51)

"Remember Allah inspired the angels: I am with you. Give firmness to the
believers. I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers: you
smite them above their necks and smite all their fingertips off of them."
(Koran, 8:12)

"In order that Allah may separate the pure from the impure, put all the
impure ones [all non-Muslims] one on top of another in a heap and cast them
into hell. They will have been the ones to have lost." (Koran, 8:37)

"If there are twenty amongst you, you will vanquish two hundred: if a
hundred, you will vanquish a thousand of them [infidels]" (Koran 8:65).

Allah and his messenger announce that it is acceptable to go back on our
promises (treaties) and obligations with Pagans and make war on them
whenever we find ourselves strong enough to do so (Koran 9:3)

"Fight and slay the Pagans, seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for
them in every stratagem" (Koran 9:5)

Our God tells us to "fight the unbelievers" and "He will punish them by our
hands, cover them with shame and help us (to victory) over them" (Koran
9:14).

"Until they pay the Jizya [a penalty tax for the non-Muslims living under
Islamic rules] with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued" (Koran
9:29)

"Unless we go forth, (for Jihad) He will punish us with a grievous penalty,
and put others in our place" (9:39).

"O Prophet! Make war against the unbelievers [all non-Muslims] and the
hypocrites and be merciless against them. Their home is hell, an evil
refuge indeed." (Koran, 9:73)

"Murder them and treat them harshly" (Koran 9:123)
"When you meet the unbelievers in jihad [holy war], chop off their heads.
And when you have brought them low, bind your prisoners rigorously. Then
set them free or take ransom from them until the war is ended." (Koran,
47:40)

"When we decide to destroy a population, we send a definite order to them
who have the good things in life and yet sin. So that Allah's word is

proven true against them, then we destroy them utterly." (Koran, 17:16-17)

"How many were the populations we utterly destroyed because of their sins,

setting up in their place other peoples." (Koran, 21:11)

"strike off the heads of the disbelievers" (Koran 47:4)

"Seize ye him, and bind ye him, And burn ye him in the Blazing Fire.

Further, make him march in a chain, whereof the length is seventy cubits!
This was he that would not believe in Allah Most High. And would not
encourage the feeding of the indigent! So no friend hath he here this Day.
Nor hath he any food except the corruption from the washing of wounds,
Which none do eat but those in sin." (Koran 69:30-37)

"You (i.e. Muslims) will fight wi the Jews till some of them will hide
behind stones. The stones will (betray them) saying, 'O 'Abdullah (i.e.
slave of Allah)! There is a Jew hiding behind me; so kill him.' " (Sahih
Bukhari Volume 4, Book 52, Number 177)

The Prophet killed the men of the Jewish tribe Bani Quraiza (some 600 to
800 of them) and distributed their women, children and property among the
Muslims All the other Jews of Medina were exiled. (Bukhari 5:59:362)

The Prophet had the date-palms of the Jewish tribe of Bani-Al- Nadir burnt
and cut down.

"It was with Allah's permission" (Koran 59:5)
The Prophet said to Sa'd, :The Bani Quraiza have agreed to accept your
verdict"

Sa'd said, "Kill all their men and take their women and children
as slaves" The Prophet replied, "You have judged according to God's
Judgment" (Bukhari 5:59:447)

"The Christians say: The Christ is the son of Allah; "Fight against such as
those to whom the Scriptures were given [Jews and Christians]...until they
pay tribute out of hand and are utterly subdued." (Surah 9:29)

These are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who
disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them." (Sura 9:30)

"Unbelievers are those who say: 'God is one of three.' [Catholics included.]

There is but one
God. If they do not desist from so saying, those of them that disbelieve
shall be sternly punished." (Surah 5:73)

Islam, the religion of peace?

???

1968 Robert Kennedy assassinated - Islamic Terrorist

1970 (?) 4 airliners hijacked, 3 airliners blownup in the Middle East in single operation - - Islamic Terrorists
1970 Jordanian citizens attacked, murdered (by PLO) - - Islamic Terrorists

1972 Munich massacre of Israelis - Islamic Terrorists

1975 Raid on Entebbe, Uganda - Israeli plane hijacked, Israelis murdered - Islamic Terrorists

1983 Lebanon Marine Barracks attack - 250 murdered - Islamic Terrorists

1985 Rome Airport murders - Islamic Terrorists
1985 TWA Flight 847 hijacked, U.S. Navy diver murdered - Islamic Terrorists
1985 Achille Lauro hijacking, murder - Islamic Terrorists

1986 Germany, Disco Bombing, U.S. military personnel murdered - Islamic Terrorists

1988 Pan Am 747 Flight 103 Bombing, Lockerbie, 100's murdered - Islamic Terrorists

1993 Khobar Towers attack - Islamic Terrorists
1993 World Trade Center attacked - Islamic Terrorists

1998 U.S. Kenya Embassy blown up, 100's murdered - Islamic Terrorists
1998 U.S. Tanzania Embassy blown up, 100's murdered - Islamic Terrorists

1999 Plot to blow up Space Needle - Islamic Terrorists
2000 USS Cole attacked, many U.S. Navy sailors murdered - Islamic Terrorists
2000-2002 Intifada against Israel - 100's dead and injured - Islamic Terrorists

2001 4 Commercial airliners hijacked, 250+ murdered - Islamic Terrorists
2001 World Trade Center attacked, 2800+ murdered - Islamic Terrorists
2001 Flight 93 murders - Islamic Terrorists
2001 Pentagon attacked, 180+ murdered - Islamic Terrorists

2002 Reporter Daniel Pearl, kidnapped and murdered - Islamic Terrorists
2002 Philippines American missionary, Filipino nurse killed - Islamic Terrorists
2002 July 4, El Al attack Los Angeles LAX, several murdered - Islamic Terrorist
2002 Bali bombing - 200 dead, 300 injured - Islamic Terrorists
2002 Yemen, French Oil Tanker attacked - Islamic Terrorists
2002 Marines attacked / murdered in Kuwait - Islamic Terrorists
2002 Washington D.C. sniper - Islamic Terrorist
2002 Russian Theater attacked, 100+ dead - Islamic Terrorists
2002 Nigerian riots against Miss World Pageant, 200 dead, dozens injured - Islamic Terrorists
2002 Mombasa Hotel Attacked, 12 dead, dozens injured - Islamic Terrorists
2002 Israeli Boeing 757 attacked by missiles, fortunately no one injured - Islamic Terrorists
>p> PLO - Islamic Terrorists
PFLP - Islamic Terrorists
Black September - Islamic Terrorists
Fatah - Islamic Terrorists
Islamic Jihad - Islamic Terrorists
Hizbollah - Islamic Terrorists
Hamas - Islamic Terrorists
Yasser Arafat - Islamic Terrorist
Osama bin Laden - Islamic Terrorist

"May I ask you a question? While I realize that the Pope of your religion supports Islam, have you ever looked at what Islam teaches regarding Jesus Christ?"

A point of clarification here. Catholic teaching on Islam is that there is a great deal of common ground between Christianity and Islam than say ... Christianity and Wicca or Christianity and Hinduism. I don't think that this is exactly quite that hard to acknowledge.

Regarding the identity of the deity that Muslims worship, I would point out that contemporary Jews also do not acknowledge that Jesus Christ is God, yet most Freepers don't see this as proof of Jewish apostacy, claim that Jews do not worship the Yahweh Godhead, or abrogation of Jewish claims to the Holy Land.

I, however, am not defending Islamic Christology, which have rather strong objections to. However, the verses you cited strike me as referring to the Gnostic sects formed by Simon Magus (the Gnostics believed that Jesus was a spiritual rather than physical being and hence could not have flesh) or to opponents of Christianity within Judaism who denied that Jesus is the Messiah. This is my interpretation of these verses, and while I doubt that you'll agree with it, I am simply putting it out there to point out that your method of interpreting a text is not the only one, which is one of the my big points about these verses from the Qur'an that are so frequently posted around here.

"It isn't hate to expose what a huge group of people believe. It's common sense."

Indeed. However, the problem that the "Islam is Evil" advocates run into is the same one that black racists like Jesse Jackson or Al Sharpton run into every day that a black guy isn't beaten, lynched, or otherwise harmed by whites. If all or even a sufficiently large number of Muslims subscribed to the interpretations of the Qur'an that you posted, my own opinion is that a large part of Detroit would have been engulfed in street-to-street fighting immediately following 9/11. The DC sniper (who may indeed be part of al-Fuqra, let's not rule anything out here) would have been just the tip of the iceberg compared to the potential amount of violence that America's Muslim population could unleash against the US.

It's the same standard by which the liberal stereotype of gunowners as white supremacist, anti-government, homicidal time bombs fails. The vast majority of gunowners are peaceful, patriotic, law-abiding citizens who choose to exercise their constitutional right to bear arms. The idea of cracking down on those gunowners who are nuts doesn't preclude the fact that the vast majority of gunowners are no closer to Conspiracy Theorist Psycho Shooter #347 than the average Muslim appears to be any closer to al-Qaeda or its global jihad.

If all or even a majority of gunowners held to kind of white supremacist, anti-government beliefs that liberals like to tar and feather them with, the amount of damage that they could do would be nothing short of horrifying. But there seem to be a rather profound lack of anti-government or racist shootings, hence I think evidence at hand does not justify the liberal conclusion. The whole idea that all or most Muslims are either tacit supporters of or actual terrorists fails by the same standards. And I think that most attempts to tar and feather Islam with such a definition only serves to provide one of the easiest recruiting to tools to al-Qaeda.

The United States honestly does not want to get caught up in a global holy war. I realize that some Freepers are itching for the day when President Bush announces a crusade against Islam, but I think that these people have already surrendered themselves to all of the "clash of civilizations" rhetoric. This is not entirely their fault, as I view the moderate factions of Islam as not having made enough effort after 9/11 to publicize their views, effectively ceding the playing field to Wahhabi puppets like CAIR or the AMC.

I scanned over your quotes from the Qur'an, and let me just make following observations:

- Here again, what these verses mean varies a great deal from sect to sect. Some, like the Wahhabis, view them as referring to the contemporary age, with the infidels being modern day non-Muslims. Others, such as the Hanafis (the Turkish sect of Islam), see them as referring to the ancient polytheist tribes of the Arabian Peninsula and see no more reason to carry out such threats than a Christian feels a need to go out and kill those who engage false witness after reading the account of Ananias and Sapphira in Acts 5:1-11.

- I'm not going to condone Mohammed's actions against the Bani Quraiza or Bani al-Nadir tribes. However, it might be noted that a Muslim could make similar claims about the life of say ... King David, who is described in the Bible as a man after God's own heart. I don't plan to justify Mohammed or his actions, I'm simply arguing that I don't believe that all of his followers are out on some mass campaign to destroy Western civilization.

Continuing onwards, it strikes me that your records of Islamic terrorism can generally be classified as being part of three major groups: Hezbollah, al-Qaeda, and Palestinian groups of some stripe or another.

However, the question is not whether they felt that they had some type of theological justification behind their actions. While in many cases this is true, I don't think you can really classify the Palestinian terrorists' desire for an independent state as being an Islamic cause. The current Palestinian Authority certainly isn't under the sha'riah and up until the beginning of the current Intifada when Arafat decided to reinvent himself as a religious as well as political leader, religion really didn't factor much into the Palestinian cause (this is the primary complaint of Hamas and Islamic Jihad against Arafat). The Palestinian terrorists of the 1960s, 70s, and 80s were all secular and in some cases (PFLP) even communist nationalists.

The same goes for the examples of Libyan terrorism that you sanctioned. During the 1980s, Qadaffi provided money and weaponry to any organization or country that hated the US or NATO, including the communist government of Nicaragua, the IRA, the ETA, and the Italian Red Brigades. To classify Libyan terrorism as "Islamic terrorism" is naive at best given that Qadaffi is far more of a student of Hitler or Stalin than he is of say Ibn Abd al-Wahhab or even Sayyid Qutb.

Additionally, nearly all of the true examples of Islamic terrorism you provided can be linked back to two strains of Islam, Khomeinism (after the late Ayatollah Khomeini) and Wahhabism.

Khomeinism is already quite unpopular in the land of its birth, as you can see with the daily reports of protests and insurrections in Iran. How can this be if the majority of the population consists of Muslims and all Muslims support the formation of such regimes?

Wahhabism is still alive and kicking, unfortunately, but this is largely due to the United States' continued (and unfortunately naive) patronage of Saudi Arabia. So long as the Wahhabi religious establishment there remains intact, the anti-Western, anti-American, pro-terrorist crap will continue to be the rallying cry for Muslims worldwide. The Wahhabis have infiltrated a great deal of prestigious Islamic religious positions between the collapse of the Ottoman Empire and 2002. They control 80% of the mosques in the US and Europe and fan the flames of extremism worldwide through their interpretation of the Qur'an. If you want to defeat Islamic terrorism, then I suggest the US come clean and acknowledge Riyadh as an adversary. Because so long as we keep on viewing the Saudis as our friends, the more time (to say nothing of money) they will continue to say one thing in the mosque and something very different at the Embassy.

I look forward to your response.