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US Conservatives dispute Bush’s portrayal of Islam
The Indian Express ^ | 12/9/02 | Dana Milbank

Posted on 12/09/2002 7:38:48 AM PST by 1bigdictator

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To: Angelus Errare; republicanwizard
Youre both blind. Rex your seeing eye dog is on the way via UPS.
41 posted on 12/09/2002 1:56:56 PM PST by Delbert
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To: Delbert
So tell me then, up-front, since you know all the answers:

Are the Freepers Turk_2 or a_turk terrorist sympathizers because they are good Muslims?

I await your response.
42 posted on 12/09/2002 1:59:26 PM PST by Angelus Errare
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To: Angelus Errare
It doesnt matter if they are good or not, the guy that owns the convenience store by my house is from Pakistan and a good man, one of my good friends, ...and yes he is a Muslim. But that doesnt matter , because his country and several other Islamic states are controlled by THE BAD MUSLIMS, that want to put an end to western civilization and make the entire world submit to Islam. Problem is with your argument their Paco, is that there are not enough good Muslims to make a difference in the blanket of evil that Islam as a whole is trying to cover the world with. If they are so good and feel so strongly about their "Goodness" then they need to stand up collectively and denounce the BAD MUSLIMS and expel the vermin from their ranks.
43 posted on 12/09/2002 2:09:46 PM PST by Delbert
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To: Delbert
Finally. We're getting somewhere.

"But that doesnt matter , because his country and several other Islamic states are controlled by THE BAD MUSLIMS, that want to put an end to western civilization and make the entire world submit to Islam. Problem is with your argument their Paco, is that there are not enough good Muslims to make a difference in the blanket of evil that Islam as a whole is trying to cover the world with."

I agree completely. However, I would point out that claiming that the bad Muslims are the only real/true/authentic Muslims out there is not exactly going to make us any friends in that part of the world. If anybody is actually curious as to why President Bush refers to Islam as a "religion of peace," that's why.

I fully agree as well that Islam hasn't been able to police its own house and that the kooks are now running the show in quite a few countries worldwide. If they can't keep their home in order, we'll do it for them. Although I would point out that the fact that the US has coddled and sucked up to the incubator of all Islamic terrorism (Saudi Arabia) as well as aided the terrorist KLA isn't exactly making things easier for the good Muslims out there.

"If they are so good and feel so strongly about their 'Goodness' then they need to stand up collectively and denounce the BAD MUSLIMS and expel the vermin from their ranks."

They are. The Algerians have been doing it for 10 years. Radical Islam is dead in Turkey. The members of the largest Muslim party in Indonesia has demanded that the government arrest and try Bashir and Co. rather than this kid glove treatment they're using. The Jordanians stormed right into Maan right after that American diplomat was killed and lost several of their soldiers because of it. The Kuwait has arrested scores of al-Qaeda sleepers (a move the FBI might try to emulate) after the recent drive-bys, including bin Laden's Kuwait operations chief, and in less than a month! Or look at Moscow, when the Grand Mufti of Chechnya told Barayev and his thugs to let the hostages go? Or the thousands of Iranian students who are now staging almost daily protests?

This hardly strikes me as the Clinton-esque crap we get from the unofficial Saudi organs like CAIR and AMC. You can tell the good Muslims from the bad by their works on our behalf, works that seem to indicate that not everybody's taking bin Laden's word on what the Qur'an says.
44 posted on 12/09/2002 2:29:28 PM PST by Angelus Errare
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To: Angelus Errare
Agreed on several issues .....Iran is ready to explode. Right now the religious police are only fighting with sticks, the students need to switch to bigger sticks...and then it will only escalate. I know Bush cant denounce Islam, regardless of his personal beliefs. So in my opinion he needs to leave religion out of it and hit these assholes wherever they are.
As far as Islam is concerned they can find out the truth for themselves when they die, as we all will.
I am a Christian...and if any other person who called themselves a Christian, especially anyone in power or authority...started telling everyone to submit to Jesus or die, and started trying to recruit my sons to blow themselves up for Jesus, I would rise up against them and oppose them at every oppurtunity. Where is that voice in the Muslim world? It is but a whisper.
45 posted on 12/09/2002 2:51:40 PM PST by Delbert
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To: Angelus Errare
Of course, most people logically seem to view both of these courses of action repellant, which may explain why they prefer to denounce Islam from the relative anonymity of this forum rather than to the faces of actual Muslims where their views might be confronted by individuals far more knowledgeable about the nature of Islam than a couple of people who skimmed some websites, cut-and-pasted from the Qur'an, and read the same religious propoganda (and it isn't just Islam that receives this treatment, since as a Catholic I am constantly pestered by folks who are so certain that I secretly worship Mary as a goddess) that works just fine until somebody comes along to refute them.

Well, first of all, unlike you and most of the people on FR I post under my real name. I think about what I say before I post, and I stand by it to the extent that I have the guts to sign my real name to it. If that results in a Fatwah against me, so be it. My Lord is more powerful than anything them Muslims can throw against me, and if I must die I'd rather it be because I made a public stand for what I believed to be true and right rather than to cower in terror.

And that brings me to the main point: Jesus told us that we can and should evaluate people and things based upon their fruits -- the actual deeds and their character. Islam isn't something new, we have almost 14 centuries of history. It is a history that does not make for very pleasant reading. It is a history of almost unremitting war, murder, rape, pilage, slavery, destruction, persecution, a glorification and catering to the very worst of male sexual impulses, an "ends justifies means" approach to the employment of every evil deed in the book to advance the territorial reach of Islam, and the list of evil goes on and on.

Even Christianity, if broadly enough (although perhaps illegitimately) defined, has a history marred by those who have done bad things. But Christianity has been around for a lot longer, and has had more of a global reach than Islam. If "all religions are the same" and all are "just as bad", then one should expect the history of Christianity to be even worse. No objective comparison of the two religions can possibly support that conclusion. Furthermore, one is faced with this fundamental fact: Whatever bad things "Christians" did, they did in disobedience to the clear teaching of the Christian scriptures, whereas by contrast there are MANY bad things that MANY Muslims have done that are clearly in obedience to the explicit commands of the Islamic scriptures. We can debate about interpretation all we want, but the fact remains that Muslim jihadis have always gone about their work reciting the chapter and verse of the Quran motivating and justifying their actions, whereas Christian crusaders could only proclaim vague slogans based mostly on generalized sentiment. There ARE NO biblical passages justifying the Crusades or similar actions.

So then, when I stand up and say in public that Islam is not a "religion of peace" but a religion of war, when I say that it is not good but evil, that is not because I hate individual Muslims -- I do not. It is not because I am advocating a generalized war of extermination against them -- I am not. But what I am saying is that it is past time that people start standing up and speaking the truth defiantly. We cannot let ourselves secumb to terror, but must have the courage to start standing up now.

What would I say to a Muslim to their face? I would say that I do not hate them, that I wish them no harm, that I am quite prepared to accept a "live and let live" co-existence. But I also am quite cognizant that by the dictates of their own religion, I am considered an "infidel" with no rights, even the right to life, and that the dictates of their own scriptures, literally interpreted, require them to not reciprocate such mutual tolerance. I must tell them that this is not acceptable. I must tell them that I do not hold them individually and personally responsible for whatever bad things other Muslims may have done past or present, but that I do hold them personally responsible to not resort to such evil themselves, nor to aid or abet those of their co-religionists that do. I must tell them that if they wish to live in this country and enjoy its wealth and freedoms, then they must also accept the necessary responsibilities. That includes not just refraining from harming other Americans or our institutions, but also in actively participating in our common defense. That means standing with us in condemning our enemies, and that means cooperating with the authorities in reporting any enemies that might have sneaked in and are plotting the destruction of many. And if they are not willing to do this, then I think I have good reason to ask "Why?"

46 posted on 12/09/2002 2:51:42 PM PST by Stefan Stackhouse
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To: Stefan Stackhouse
And if they are not willing to do this, then I think I have good reason to ask "Why?" <---Because they are Lemmings.

47 posted on 12/09/2002 3:11:47 PM PST by Delbert
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To: Stefan Stackhouse
My name is Dan Darling.

"And that brings me to the main point: Jesus told us that we can and should evaluate people and things based upon their fruits -- the actual deeds and their character."

I agree. However, this also means acknowledging those who are fighting on our side in this, such as those I mentioned in my last post.

"Islam isn't something new, we have almost 14 centuries of history. It is a history that does not make for very pleasant reading. It is a history of almost unremitting war, murder, rape, pilage, slavery, destruction, persecution, a glorification and catering to the very worst of male sexual impulses, an "ends justifies means" approach to the employment of every evil deed in the book to advance the territorial reach of Islam, and the list of evil goes on and on.

"Even Christianity, if broadly enough (although perhaps illegitimately) defined, has a history marred by those who have done bad things. But Christianity has been around for a lot longer, and has had more of a global reach than Islam. If "all religions are the same" and all are "just as bad", then one should expect the history of Christianity to be even worse. No objective comparison of the two religions can possibly support that conclusion."

First of all, I feel that you're adopting a rather negative view of Islam by listing only the negative actions perpetrated by Muslims (and this requires thinking outside the realm of Arab history) as opposed to the positive contributions to such things as science, art, and literature that Muslims have made throughout the centuries. If you looked at Christianity picking out only the bad stuff, you can come up with a similarly distorted view. You hear all the time about how Christians are and always have been evil, racist, sex-hating, homophobic, and oppressive people from any number of left-wing sources.

Christians (which I distinguish as being separate from Christianity because I'm not a big fan of collective judgement) have commited all of the atrocities you've ascribed to Islam:

* War - Check.
* Murder - Check.
* Slavery - Check.
* Destruction - Check.
* Persecution - Check.
* Glorification and Catering to the Worst Male Sexual Impulses - Check.
* Ends Justifies the Means Approach - Check.

"But Christianity has been around for a lot longer, and has had more of a global reach than Islam."

Indeed. But how did Christianity get that global advantage? Largely through conquest of the Americas, Central Asia, and Sub-saharan Africa. I honestly fail to see the distinction between the Spanish and Portugese conquests of the New World and that of the early Muslim caliphs.

"If 'all religions are the same' and all are 'just as bad,' then one should expect the history of Christianity to be even worse. No objective comparison of the two religions can possibly support that conclusion."

I'm not arguing for moral equivalence, but rather that the distinctions are a lot grayer than many people here are willing to recognize.

"Furthermore, one is faced with this fundamental fact: Whatever bad things "Christians" did, they did in disobedience to the clear teaching of the Christian scriptures, whereas by contrast there are MANY bad things that MANY Muslims have done that are clearly in obedience to the explicit commands of the Islamic scriptures."

Once again, "explicit commands" is a matter of exegesis. I don't view the Old Testament's prohibition against inter-marriage as applying to me, but a lot of Southern whites used to. Similarly, I doubt that our Turkish Freepers believe that the Qur'an tells them that they have to go out and kill infidels. I see no reason to doubt their sincerity in this regard, anymore than I doubt my own when it comes to intermarriage.

"What would I say to a Muslim to their face? I would say that I do not hate them, that I wish them no harm, that I am quite prepared to accept a 'live and let live' co-existence."

I really appreciate the clarification. In the end, that's all I'm asking for.
48 posted on 12/09/2002 4:43:37 PM PST by Angelus Errare
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To: republicanwizard
I am not talking about "followers of JC" I am referring to Mohammed himself and Islam. Surah 47:4 Muslims are commanded by Allah to smite the necks of all those who do not accept the teachings of Islam until all are subdued. When did JC ever call for execution? I am questioning the actual validity of Islam as a religion. There is no way that the God of Mohammed could be the same as the God of the Christians or even the Jews for that matter. JC never guaranteed 72 virgins in paradise. JC never said that war is a virtue and a duty. In Christianity, the law does not take presidnece over God like it does with Islam. JC did not come to give us law, he came to give us love.
49 posted on 12/09/2002 6:01:37 PM PST by virgil
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To: republicanwizard
Whenever Bush or some other idiotic person in his naive Administration issues some sugar coated, politically correct basura about Islam being civil and peaceful in this day and age when even the Europeans are starting to wake up and its all over the Northeast Asian press in clear language as a matter-of-fact (that this indeed is a backward, uncivil, violent word plague), we on Free Republic ought to tag the thread as

"TROPCRAP ALERT"i.e., (T)he (R)eligion (O)f (P)eace (Crap)

50 posted on 12/09/2002 6:18:04 PM PST by AmericanInTokyo
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To: Angelus Errare
Well, thanks for your post. I continue to challenge anyone to show me where in the New Testament (through which, according to Christian theology, the Old Testament must be understood) there is any command for any Christian:

- To engage in war against the inhabitants of territories that are majority non-Christian, just because they are not-Christian, and for the explicit purpose of making it Christian territory?

- To murder any non-Christian, just because they are non-Christian?

- To spread Christianity not by preaching and teaching and personal example, but by giving non-Christians the options of conversion or death?

- To not just tolerate slavery within carefully constrained limits, but to actively and aggressively go about enslaving as many people as possible from non-Christian populations?

- To rape non-Christian women, or to enslave and degrade them in harems against their will?

I am intimately familiar with all books of the New Testament, in multiple translations, and even to some extent in the original Greek. I do not recall anything commanding any of this. I do recall verses commending civil government to justly exercise its powers to protect the innocent and to uphold just law and order, and commanding Christians to peacefully and obediently live under such civil authority. But I don't see any way that this could be legitimately be stretched to justify any of the above.

Yes, many "Christians" have done lots of bad things. It is questionable in my mind to what extent they really are Christians, if the term is to actually mean anything other than whatever anyone fancies it to mean. It is certainly inconceivable to me how anyone could willingly do such evil and still have any thought theat they were somehow being obedient to the clear teachings of Christian scripture. I guess it is possible for some people to be terribly ignorant and misinformed, or more likely misled by evil and fraudulent men who were only interested in using Christianity for their own evil purposes. But is that Christianity's fault?

51 posted on 12/09/2002 8:35:47 PM PST by Stefan Stackhouse
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To: Stefan Stackhouse
Where did Angelus Errare go?
52 posted on 12/09/2002 10:39:27 PM PST by Kay Soze
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To: Kay Soze
Latest news from the Islamic world-
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/803808/posts?page=1

All one has to do is read a news papers headlines for islamic thought and I mean any newspaper.


53 posted on 12/09/2002 10:53:25 PM PST by Kay Soze
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To: republicanwizard
If I might add to your post number 3, if you think about it, by festering HATE we are playing right into the hands of the militant extremist Islamists.

The dissention and mistrust is going to cause a friction like never seen before. I happen to feel this is going exactly as a certain "sect/faction" would like.

This way they get rid of those Muslims who they consider "infidels".. and the Christians and Jews too.

We think there are already a TON of radical extremists in the US right now and that our country needs to, and is doing something about it. One only has to look to see that we are closing in on a lot of groups who laundered money for terrorists. But if we allow this type of hate to grow, hate for an entire religion, we will never have the kind of peace and security we once knew as a nation.

We absolutely HAVE to route out terrorists.. but we also have to be extremely careful to NOT play into their hands.

The mullahs must who state that Islam is a religion of peace must start speaking out (The ones that have, are being ignored by the liberal media).. the people who are Muslim and believe in peace must speak out against those who would destroy any other religion just because they don't believe the way they do.

I think as a nation we must be cautious.. know our enemies,.. but at the same time be cognizant enough to realize that by perpetuation HATE, we will self destruct,..and I happen to think that just may be part of a grander scheme by our enemies.



54 posted on 12/09/2002 10:58:21 PM PST by Vets_Husband_and_Wife
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To: republicanwizard
Get real! What a fool you are. Pick up a Koran and READ it. These extreme Islamist are doing EXACTLY what it says. The "moderate" ones are simply spiritully lazy and frankly, don't read the Koran. It's the same as some folks claiming to be a Christian but have no clue on what that means or what the teachings of Jesus are.

No where in time has this religion been one of peace and love. NEVER! If you believe this is true, give me an example. You'll find there are NONE. Prior to the Crusades lead by the Catholic Pope, most of europe was muslim. They forced conversion and why the Crusades happened. It's a religion of intolerance and killing of those who will not convert to their evil religion.

55 posted on 12/09/2002 11:01:48 PM PST by nmh
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To: 1bigdictator
Bush has called ...Islam ....a religion committed to ‘‘morality and learning and tolerance.’’

If not for the cold fact that people who practice Islam are responsible for nearly every armed conflict on the planet, this statement would be worthy of hearty laughter.

56 posted on 12/09/2002 11:03:47 PM PST by Mr. Mojo
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To: republicanwizard
Demeaning Mohammed or his followers

You mean calling him a pedophile and a terrorist? Well, wasn't he?

57 posted on 12/09/2002 11:08:04 PM PST by Mr. Mojo
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To: republicanwizard
You: "The Old Testament is a really pacific book. If I were to follow it literally, then I would run around killing everyone. "

I'm not sure what you mean by a "pacific" book but I know for sure you have not read the Old Testament when you say the above. The Old Testament is NOT teaching people to run around and kill one another. Whether it be the Old Testament or the New Testament this is not the teaching of God.

You: I don't since I have common sense.

One thing is for sure, you DON'T know the Bible or the teachings in it. As for common sense, well, I question that since your first statement:

"The Old Testament is a really pacific book. If I were to follow it literally, then I would run around killing everyone. "

is ridiculous and you mistakenly assume that others are blind to God's Word and teachings to be gleaned from it. If I were so ignorant, I'd refrain from such idiotic statements. Common sense tells me to keep mu ignorance to myself until I knew what I was talking about.

58 posted on 12/09/2002 11:09:02 PM PST by nmh
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To: republicanwizard
If I were to follow it [The Old Testament] literally, then I would run around killing everyone.

You win the "most moronic statement of the week" award. And considering FR's 90,000+ members, that's quite an accomplishment.

59 posted on 12/09/2002 11:11:07 PM PST by Mr. Mojo
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Comment #60 Removed by Moderator


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