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To: TheConservator
Christianity, as an organized religion, came into being as an afterthought. The Gospels weren't written down until nearly 80 years had passed. The Nicene Creed, which was the first "official" statement of doctrine, was adopted 400 years after Christ walked the earth. It was the powers and principalities of the world, notably the Roman and Byzantine empires, which gave Christianity its outward forms. The indictments against Christianity are rarely indictments against Christ; they are usually against people with names like Borgia.

Mohammed, on the other hand, packaged Islam ready to franchise from the git-go. It had a source of funds, the Haj. It had a military arm, the Companions. It had a form of government, the Caliphate. It had a legal system, sharia. And a body of written scripture. You can argue that Osama Bin Laden is practicing Islam right out the box. Mohammed would have done Colonel Sanders proud.

Pipes is arguing, not that Islam isn't so, but that it need not remain so. The alternative is a war of extinction. Perhaps he is right; Turkey being the counterexample to the proposition that all Muslims must die. But the task of learning to live in peace with people like Osama is so alike to all-out war as to defy distinction.

Yet if we hold ourselves Christians and warriors too, we must accept that losing one's life is not the only thing that can happen on the battlefield. We must emerge with our souls intact too to make it worth the candle. Pipes may be right: there is another road, but it is also a hard one.
8 posted on 08/13/2002 2:45:20 AM PDT by wretchard
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To: wretchard
It was the powers and principalities of the world, notably the Roman and Byzantine empires, which gave Christianity its outward forms.

I agree."We wrestle not against flesh and blood but against rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms."

Those evil powers have used earthly powers to 'form' Christianity and most of it is man-made religious organization. systems of activity that come from man with the help of evil forces.

The Father did not have this in mind for the Church. The Church is governed by the Holy Spirit....HIS Holy Spirit and we are doing a poor job today of listening to Him.

13 posted on 08/13/2002 5:38:44 AM PDT by Jackie222
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To: wretchard
Could we have gone to the German people and pleaded with them to remove Hitler, drop out of their military campaigns, and become the "pro-Western" nation that a part of Germany did following WWII?

Or do you knock out the leader. Kill their followers (the ones who empower them) and instill your own reforms?

30 posted on 08/13/2002 1:35:30 PM PDT by weegee
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To: wretchard
Revelation 13

1 And the dragon stood on the shore of the sea. And I saw a beast coming out of the sea. He had ten horns and seven heads, with ten crowns on his horns, and on each head a blasphemous name.
2 The beast I saw resembled a leopard, but had feet like those of a bear and a mouth like that of a lion. The dragon gave the beast his power and his throne and great authority.


It's a family feud,

Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Judah, on down to David and to Yeshua.

Abram, Ishmael, on down to Muhammad and to...

31 posted on 08/13/2002 1:35:59 PM PDT by Jeremiah Jr
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