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Car repair codes (Check Engine Light) get attention of Congress
dfw.com ^ | 080102 | TOM WEBB

Posted on 08/01/2002 8:50:32 AM PDT by InvisibleChurch

Car repair codes get attention of Congress

BY TOM WEBB St. Paul Pioneer Press

WASHINGTON — Here's the problem: Your car's dashboard light says "Check engine," but your neighborhood mechanic can't turn it off. He doesn't have the special codes. So a trip to the dealer is required.

That little annoyance got some big attention Tuesday, as a U.S. Senate panel tried to pressure auto manufacturers to stop withholding the special codes and diagnostic tools that independent garages need to repair cars.

Independent garages suspect some car companies are trying to keep the codes a secret and force them out of business.

"Without service information, we will ultimately be forced to close our doors," Dale Feste, owner of Dale Feste Automotive in Hopkins, told a Senate Commerce subcommittee.

More than 100 auto mechanics crowded the hearing room to support a code-sharing bill by Sen. Paul Wellstone, D-Minn. But not the auto manufacturers, who said they already share virtually all repair information with local garages — or soon will.

"Auto manufacturers do not intentionally withhold service information from the auto service industry," insisted John Cabaniss, a director for the Association of International Automobile Manufacturers.

"To do so would be contrary to their best interests. Automakers want their customers … to obtain effective service no matter where or when their vehicles need maintenance."

The disagreement left some senators puzzled, but the picture eventually cleared. Feste explained that some carmakers — particularly General Motors, but also Ford — have excellent records of sharing information, computer codes and diagnostic tools.

But many European-based automakers do not, Feste said, and independent garage owners want to halt any trend toward secrecy as emission, braking and other auto systems grow ever more complex.

In response to earlier complaints, 20 car companies have promised that by January, they'll provide independent garages "the same diagnostic and repair capabilities" that they provide their franchised dealers, for all recent cars and light trucks. Honda and Porsche did not sign the agreement.

To the automakers, the issue is "really a 'parts bill' masquerading as a 'repair bill,'" said Greg Dana, an official at the Alliance of Automobile Manufacturers. They fear the bill would force them to release proprietary information, allowing outside manufacturers to "copy our parts and sell them as their own," he said.

Said Scott Lambert, executive vice president of the Minnesota Auto Dealers Association, "There's two codes the manufacturers have. There's default codes, which is what all the dealers use, all the technicians use to diagnose cars, that's the common code, that's widely available, and is being made more available …

"The second code is the calibration code, and nobody has those," he added. "Those are the background software. … The dealers don't have the calibration codes, and the independent repair shops don't need 'em. … What the Wellstone bill does is make all of that, both the default and the calibration codes, public to everybody. And what happens then is that the aftermarket parts manufacturers will be able to make cheaper knock-off parts."

In any case, Wellstone said he "would be delighted if the manufacturers sit down with the mechanics" to fix the problem without congressional action. But if not, he promised to move ahead, although it's very unlikely Congress could act this year.

Either solution would be fine for Sen. Byron Dorgan, D-N.D. Dorgan's local mechanic couldn't turn off the "Check engine" light on his dashboard, either, he said.


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INRI
1 posted on 08/01/2002 8:50:32 AM PDT by InvisibleChurch
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To: InvisibleChurch
I've never been to a mechanic that couldn't decode the error. I've also never been to a mechanic that relied on the computer. Sounds like we've got a bunch of 2nd rate mechanics annoyed that they can no longer cover for their own incompetence.
2 posted on 08/01/2002 8:56:38 AM PDT by discostu
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To: Jhoffa_
They don't call 'em "idiot lights" for nothin'.
3 posted on 08/01/2002 8:56:42 AM PDT by Willie Green
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To: InvisibleChurch
Got a problem, get a program.

Standard liberal mantra.
4 posted on 08/01/2002 8:57:53 AM PDT by Joe Bonforte
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To: InvisibleChurch
The car maker's policy of whether their codes are in the public domain or not should be broadcasted so consumers can weigh this fact before they buy the car. After that its the maker's product and they can do whatever they want with the codes.
5 posted on 08/01/2002 8:58:43 AM PDT by corkoman
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To: discostu
I've never been to a mechanic that couldn't decode the error. I've also never been to a mechanic that relied on the computer. Sounds like we've got a bunch of 2nd rate mechanics annoyed that they can no longer cover for their own incompetence.

Having the codes allows the mechanic to diagnose the problem and zero in on just what parts and procedures are needed to fix it much more quickly. This saves you, the customer, both labor and parts costs.

6 posted on 08/01/2002 8:59:29 AM PDT by RonF
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To: RonF
I think we had this arguement before. Having SKILL allows the mechanic to diagnose the problem. The program is a crutch, good sometimes but your best mechanics almost never need it. Not saying it shouldn't be there, but it's available from the manufacturers at not much cost. Any mechanic that can't afford the program (or the book, some of them just give you a book) there's probably a good reason for it. Any mechanic that HAS to have it, and can't afford is definitely one you should avoid.
7 posted on 08/01/2002 9:03:56 AM PDT by discostu
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To: discostu
The codes are helpful, for a shade-tree type such as myself. I try to do my own work where I can, and the codes for my car have been invaluable. Then again, I'm an amateur, not a professional, so I do NEED the crutch!
8 posted on 08/01/2002 9:10:45 AM PDT by Frank_Discussion
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To: Frank_Discussion
For the most part I'm not against the codes. What I am against is pros that can't fix cars without them thinking they have some birthright to help from the government. When I bought a new truck and the salesman told me the thing had 7 computers that would cost anywhere from $500 to $1000 each to replace (and having previous experience with broken car computers I knew that estimate was in line), I then did the math and figured that of the $17,000 for the truck somewhere between $3500 and $7000 was tied up in computers. At that point I started thinking that maybe we're a little to addicted to these computers and their precious codes. But overall I'm pro car computers and their diagnostic codes (and the other things they do, they can be pretty handy). I just think that in the 70s and 80s nobody tried to force Chiltons to give their book away because some mechanics couldn't do their job without it (actually most, Chiltons kicks), I don't see why anybody needs to give away the computer codes now.
9 posted on 08/01/2002 9:24:13 AM PDT by discostu
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To: InvisibleChurch
My husband took our car to a trustworthy mechanic when our "check engine" light went on. He said we needed a part replaced and he would need to order it.

My husband went home and disconnected the car battery. The light has not come back on since then. Later we bought a manual (we had none) which says to take out the fuse and put it back in.

It turned out our mechanic couldn't get the replacement part. There was a nationwide shortage of the part.

10 posted on 08/01/2002 9:36:10 AM PDT by syriacus
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To: syriacus
My husband went home and disconnected the car battery. The light has not come back on since then.

I forgot to mention, he reconnected the battery a minute or so later. :-]

11 posted on 08/01/2002 9:39:52 AM PDT by syriacus
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To: InvisibleChurch
I recently had a problem with one of my vehicles. I put a "scan tool" on it, and it spit out 4 "fault codes", only one of which was "defined", the other 3 were proprietary. My cheapo tool gave the actual codes, the couple-thousand dollar job the local mechanic had simply reported 3 undefined codes. We were able to determine the problem by looking at other readings while the car was moving. Problem was a dealer-only part, so I went to the dealer. His manufacturer-provided tool pinpointed the problem without having to drive the car 100 yards or so - he wouldn't sell me the part without making sure it was what I needed, since electrical parts are not returnable.

The codes would be real nice to have, but not as necessary as the congresscritters would leave you to believe. They should NOT pretend to be mechanics, auto engineers etc.
12 posted on 08/01/2002 9:43:05 AM PDT by MikeO
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To: InvisibleChurch
In one of my previous jobs, I worked on these things. ALL cars now are controlled by onboard computers. The error codes are computer fault codes and many times are not hardware based. For example, if the computer detected something out of spec, it can go to a "limp home" strategy. This is a default calibration that will work in any driving condition. The car will run but will have poor performance and mileage. There may not be anything wrong in the hardware, and if so, you cannot find anything wrong, the car will just run lousy.
13 posted on 08/01/2002 10:20:39 AM PDT by det dweller too
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To: discostu
The various computers in new cars are not something that the automakers really wanted to integrate into the cars. When congress ratcheted up the CAFE standards for emitions, there were not very many ways they could meet those imposed standards. They could reduce the cars weight, but making a car lighter usually means making it less safe in a crash. They could move to smaller engines, but who would want to by a new car if the engine is smaller and less powerful than the same model from a year or two earlier. The only other way to increase engine efficiency and reduce emitions beyond what had already been acheived in the 1980's was to use on board computers to monitor the engine and transmission and make constant, rapid changes to the fuel delivery, timing, ignition, etc. How else do you think we could have 6 or 8 cylinder engines that produce well over 250 horsepower and still manage to get somewhere in the neighborhood of 20 mpg?

On the issue of the computer fault codes, those will not remain secret for long. Someone who has access to them will eventually post them on the internet. Automakers are wasting time and money trying to keep these secret.
14 posted on 08/01/2002 10:21:08 AM PDT by Orangedog
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To: discostu
It's more like $20.00 tied up in computers
15 posted on 08/01/2002 11:15:16 AM PDT by quietolong
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To: InvisibleChurch
Is there anthing this group of pompous asses will not dive into?
16 posted on 08/01/2002 11:22:08 AM PDT by Ragin1
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To: discostu
When I bought a new truck and the salesman told me the thing had 7 computers that would cost anywhere from $500 to $1000 each to replace (and having previous experience with broken car computers I knew that estimate was in line), I then did the math and figured that of the $17,000 for the truck somewhere between $3500 and $7000 was tied up in computers.

Your salesman, like most, doesn't know what he's talking about.

Your truck doesn't have seven computers and they don't cost $1,000. to replace, they are covered under warranty and can be bought used when the truck ages out of warranty. Sounds like the salesman was either attempting to justify the price of the truck or just blowing hot air and attempting to appear knowledgable. He isn't.

17 posted on 08/01/2002 11:31:01 AM PDT by Jim Scott
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To: syriacus
I'm glad you cleared that up. It sounded like the car was up on blocks in your garage, but dang there's no check engine light on any more!
18 posted on 08/01/2002 12:08:57 PM PDT by Gladwin
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To: InvisibleChurch
Sure am glad there is nothing pressing facing the country so the Senate has time to entertain things like this.
19 posted on 08/01/2002 12:17:17 PM PDT by ksen
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To: InvisibleChurch
All you need is an OBDII reader for '96 and later. Earlier rigs need a paper clip :).
20 posted on 08/01/2002 12:22:48 PM PDT by cruiserman
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