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A bone to pick: Missing link is evolutionists' weakest
Houston Chronical via WorldNetDaily ^ | July 26 | Jeff Farmer

Posted on 07/29/2002 6:35:04 PM PDT by Tribune7

Printer-friendly format July 26, 2002, 6:11PM

A bone to pick: Missing link is evolutionists' weakest By JEFF FARMER

It has been said that if anyone wants to see something badly enough, they can see anything, in anything. Such was the case recently, but unlike some ghostly visage of the Madonna in a coffee stain, this was a vision of our ancestral past in the form of one recently discovered prehistoric skull, dubbed Sahelanthropus tchadensis.

Papers across the globe heralded the news with great fanfare. With words like "scientists hailed" and "startling find" sprinkled into the news coverage, who couldn't help but think evolutionists had finally found their holy grail of missing links?

For those of us with more than a passing interest in such topics as, "Where did we come from? And how did we get here?," this recent discovery and its subsequent coverage fall far short of its lofty claims. A healthy criticism is in order.

Practically before the fossil's discoverer, the French paleoanthropologist Michel Brunet, could come out of the heat of a Chadian desert, a number of his evolutionary colleagues had questioned his conclusions.

In spite of the obvious national pride, Brigitte Senut of the Natural History of Paris sees Brunet's skull as probably that of an ancient female gorilla and not the head of man's earliest ancestor. While looking at the same evidence, such as the skull's flattened face and shorter canine teeth, she draws a completely different conclusion.

Of course, one might be inclined to ask why such critiques never seem to get the same front-page coverage? It's also important to point out that throughout history, various species, such as cats, have had varying lengths of canine teeth. That does not make them any closer to evolving into another species.

A Washington Post article goes on to describe this latest fossil as having human-like traits, such as tooth enamel thicker than a chimpanzee's. This apparently indicates that it did not dine exclusively on the fruit diet common to apes. But apes don't dine exclusively on fruit; rather, their diet is supplemented with insects, birds, lizards and even the flesh of monkeys. The article attempted to further link this fossil to humans by stating that it probably walked upright. Never mind the fact that no bones were found below the head! For all we know, it could have had the body of a centaur, but that would hardly stop an overzealous scientist (or reporter) from trying to add a little meat to these skimpy bones. Could it not simply be a primate similar to today's Bonobo? For those not keeping track of their primates, Bonobos (sp. Pan paniscus) are chimpanzee-like creatures found only in the rain forests of Zaire. Their frame is slighter than that of a chimpanzee's and their face does not protrude as much. They also walked upright about 5 percent of the time. Sound familiar?

Whether it is tooth enamel, length of canines or the ability to walk upright, none of these factors makes this recent discovery any more our ancestral candidate than it does a modern-day Bonobo.

So why does every new fossil discovery seem to get crammed into some evolutionary scenario? Isn't it possible to simply find new, yet extinct, species? The answer, of course, is yes; but there is great pressure to prove evolution.

That leads us to perhaps the most troubling and perplexing aspect of this latest evolutionary hoopla. While on one hand sighting the evolutionary importance of this latest discovery, a preponderance of these articles leave the notion that somehow missing links are not all that important any more.

According to Harvard anthropologist Dan Lieberman, missing links are pretty much myths. That might be a convenient conclusion for those who have been unable to prove evolution via the fossil record. Unfortunately for them, links are absolutely essential to evolution. It is impossible for anything to evolve into another without a linear progression of these such links.

The prevailing evolutionary view of minute changes, over millions of years, is wholly inadequate for the explanation of such a critical piece of basic locomotion as the ball-and-socket joint. Until such questions can be resolved, superficial similarities between various species are not going to prove anything. No matter how bad someone wants to see it.

Farmer is a professional artist living in Houston. He can can be contacted via his Web site, www.theglobalzoo.com


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Miscellaneous
KEYWORDS: bone; crevolist; darwinism; evolution; farmer; mediahype; sahelanthropus
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To: Michael_Michaelangelo
Bummer - my link didn't work. I apologize. What happened to the "auto weblink detect" feature?

http://www.winternet.com/~mikelr/flame49.html

1,181 posted on 08/12/2002 4:37:24 PM PDT by Michael_Michaelangelo
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To: PatrickHenry
Self-search list ping.
1,182 posted on 08/12/2002 4:55:19 PM PDT by PatrickHenry
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To: VadeRetro
Oh, stop annoying him with facts! G3K has "THE TRUTH"tm
1,183 posted on 08/12/2002 5:01:02 PM PDT by Gumlegs
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To: Michael_Michaelangelo
Good link
1,184 posted on 08/12/2002 5:03:59 PM PDT by Tribune7
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To: Gumlegs
The funny thing, and the ultimate diagnostic of Holy Warrior Syndrome, is that nobody among the Cs can acknowledge how gore's behavior is playing. The whole sordid show must be perfumed and palmed off as something altogether different. We "gang up on him" and that--supposedly all that's getting through the creationist data filters--is proof that his arguments are "telling."
1,185 posted on 08/12/2002 5:25:44 PM PDT by VadeRetro
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To: MEGoody
I found it particularly interesting that the 'pro-evolution' folks seem to be ganging up on one particular 'pro-creation' fellow. Perhaps they have not evolved past the pack-mentality stage.

That's a good way to put it! You have to realize that part of their method is to not discuss evolution hoping that those who come here looking for a discussion of evolution will go away. They do not want people to see that evolution is being disproven by new scientific discoveries on a daily basis. Look at the next few posts by me to see.

1,186 posted on 08/12/2002 6:02:54 PM PDT by gore3000
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To: RightWingNilla
Of course. What else can he do but resort to such tactics, since none of the actual data from the real world support any of his arguments?

Oh my! And this from someone who has been proven wrong on what is it now - 3, 4 threads in a row with solid scientific evidence, with quotes from scientific sources and links to the complete articles? Guess you cannot refute the last two posts I made to you Post# 1094 and Post# 1100 . Instead you insult, how lame.

I do not wish to call you a liar. That would be lame and I am not lame like you and your friends. I will prove you a liar. Here are the posts totally disproving evolution which you folk refuse to answer and continue to ignore because they are totally and completely scientifically correct:


To: Michael_Michaelangelo

The fossil data has clearly produced a nightmare scenario for the evolutionist. There is no way one can examine the fossil data and come away with the conclusion that the fossil record supports evolution.

Of course there is plenty of reason for this. A bird is not just a reptile with wings. Such a transformation takes much more changes than just transforming the front legs to wings (an awesome task in itself since each gradual change must be beneficial enough to compensate for the loss of the hands):

In addtion to the feather and the avian lung [quite unique and made for flight because the whole system works by absorbing air in a single direction - unique amongst all vertebrates] there are many other unique features in the biology of the birds, in the design of the heart and cardiovascular system, in the gastrointestinal system and in the possession of a variety of other relatively minor adaptations such as for example, the unique sound producing organ, the syrinx, which similarly defy plausible explanation in graudalistic terms. Altogether it adds up to an enormous conceptual difficulty in envisaging how a reptile could have been gradually converted into a bird.
From: Michael Denton, Evolution a Theory in Crisis, page 213.

958 posted on 8/7/02 9:36 PM Pacific by gore3000
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To: PatrickHenry

You might think of the burden more accurately as the burden of coming forward with the evidence to support the theory, which is why Darwin amassed as much evidence as he could in his day and reported it in his published work.

I must say Patrick, you certainly have a Clintonian ability to weave a dozen lies into a couple of sentences.

Darwin collected evidence which supported his theory and ignored evidence which disproved it. That is why he ignored the platypus and did not talk about the most remarkable characteristic of the bat, the sonar. There was no answer for either so he swept that under the rug. He also had a fantastic ability for charlatanism, of seeming to prove something which in fact disproved his theory.

he cannot prove it, but please believe him.
All these causes taken conjointly, must have tended to make the geological record extremely imperfect, and will to a large extent explain why we do not find interminable varieties, connecting together all the extinct and existing forms of life by the finest graduated steps.

He cannot prove it but it's true:
We should not be able to recognise a species as the parent of any one or more species if we were to examine them ever so closely, unless we likewise possessed many of the intermediate links between their past or parent and present states; and these many links we could hardly ever expect to discover, owing to the imperfection of the geological record.

There is no proof but I believe I am correct:
it deserves especial notice that the more important objections relate to questions on which we are confessedly ignorant; nor do we know how ignorant we are. We do not know all the possible transitional gradations between the simplest and the most perfect organs; it cannot be pretended that we know all the varied means of Distribution during the long lapse of years, or that we know how imperfect the Geological Record is. Grave as these several difficulties are, in my judgment

In the future I will be proven right (like Miss Cleo?):
Species and groups of species, which are called aberrant, and which may fancifully be called living fossils, will aid us in forming a picture of the ancient forms of life. Embryology will reveal to us the structure, in some degree obscured, of the prototypes of each great class.

Contradicting what he said before of living fossils:
Judging from the past, we may safely infer that not one living species will transmit its unaltered likeness to a distant futurity.

Both sides prove me right:
it follows, that the amount of organic change in the fossils of consecutive formations probably serves as a fair measure of the lapse of actual time. A number of species, however, keeping in a body might remain for a long period unchanged, whilst within this same period, several of these species, by migrating into new countries and coming into competition with foreign associates, might become modified; so that we must not overrate the accuracy of organic change as a measure of time.

The future again:
In the distant future I see open fields for far more important researches.

If you have read through a few hundred pages of the above drivel, you will buy the garbage I am going to ask you to swallow now:
He who will go thus far, if he find on finishing this treatise that large bodies of facts, otherwise inexplicable, can be explained by the theory of descent, ought not to hesitate to go further, and to admit that a structure even as perfect as the eye of an eagle might be formed by natural selection, although in this case he does not know any of the transitional grades. His reason ought to conquer his imagination; though I have felt the difficulty far too keenly to be surprised at any degree of hesitation in extending the principle of natural selection to such startling lengths. from: Origin of the Species, Chapter 6

998 posted on 8/8/02 5:39 PM Pacific by gore3000
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To: Junior

Okay. So let's take three fossils. Fossil A is found in ancient strata, fossil B is found in more recent strata and Fossil C is found in the most recent strata. Fossil B resembles fossil A, sharing a number of similar features, but obviously a different critter. Fossil C bears the same relationship to fossil B. No examples of fossil B are mixed in with examples of fossil A or fossil C, and neither are examples of fossil C mixed in with fossil A.

The whole thing is garbage. For one thing the scarcity of fossils makes it impossible to be sure when the organism was around. The coelecanth was thought long gone hundreds of millions of years ago and it is still around. Likewise we cannot tell when it first came to be. Without knowing exactly when species first arose and when they ceased to exist lines of descent are impossible to ascertain.

The problem however is even bigger. The evidence is quite lacking in much that is needed to prove descent. For example:
1. What is the evidence that dinosaurs did not have purple skin? (this is needed because skin is almost an absolute requirement for proper classification - fish have scales, reptiles do not, mammals have fur, and birds have feathers).
2. What is the evidence that dinosaurs did not have mammary glands? (again this is absolutely necessary since the definition of a mammal is that it has mammary glands).
3. What is the evidence that dinosaurs had 2, 3, or 4 chambered hearts? (again this is necessary because different species have different hearts)
4. What is the evidence for dinosaur DNA? (again, this is necessary to tell us the relationships to different species).

The answer is that we do not have any such evidence. The answer is therefore that we cannot tell the descent of species from bones because bones do not give us the necessary information to even classify the organisms being studied, let alone to determine if they could have descended from one another.

345 posted on 7/31/02 7:14 PM Pacific by gore3000
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To: Hunble

1) Gradual evolution.
2) Spontanious Generation.
Your task, is to provide a single example of a new species spontaniously generating.

I'll be generous, I will give you two:

    Platypus

Now the platypus certainly did not gradually evolve from any other living creature. The features it possesses come from many different vertebrate families including fish, reptiles, mammals and birds. There is absolutely no place in the 'evolutionary tree' to put this creature into.


FROM:   Euglena Note the eye.

Euglena is both a plant and an animal, in addition to which it even has an eye. Now it is clearly impossible for a creature to have descended from both a plant and an animal in either small gradual steps or large ones!

521 posted on 8/1/02 6:00 PM Pacific by gore3000

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To: VadeRetro

Here Bohlin tries to pretend that unless every tiniest detail of a process is known, documented, filed and forgotten, it doesn't happen at all.

Absolute garbage. It is not lack of knowledge that disproves evolution, it is knowledge that disproves evolution. And I showed the impossibility of new genes, new traits arising in post#367. I have already shown all of you that your feeble attempts at refuting it are totally false and that is why why you and your fellow evolutionists do not dare to try to refute it. Let's see you prove me wrong:

essentially to get a new working gene, just one, you need what amounts to a miracle. You need:

1. a mutation which produces a duplicate gene.
2. that the duplicate gene does not hurt a vital part of the genome.
3. that the duplicate gene gets spread through the species at chances of 50% survival at each generation (note no selective advantage since the gene is just a duplicate at this point).
4. that the new gene acquires a mutation and then goes through 3 above to spread itself throughout the species again (again no selective advantage yet).
5. that it hits upon the correct helpful mutation by pure chance while going through 3 above after each try.

(Now the above alone should be enough to dissuade a reasonable person, one not blinded by faith in materialistic evolution, to say such a thing is impossible. The above is where we were some 50 years ago when DNA was discovered. Now we know more and the problem is worse.)

6. After all the above though, we still do not have a working gene! Now we need another miracle, we need the gene to:
a) be expressed in the cells where the new function, ability or whatever should go. Since there are some 3 billion cells in the human body finding which ones it should be expressed in is quite a task.
b. be connected to other processes in the organism that will tell it when to do its thing and when to stop doing it.
c. become part of the developmental program of the organism which tells the organism in what sequence each of the cell divisions is to take place. (we start with one cell and the program at each division has to determine what kind of cells to produce until we get a fully formed human being, the program does not stop there though, it continues running and telling the cells what to do until death).

Evolutionists believe however that all the above have happened - and not just once, but millions of times since the first single-celled organisms arose. Now who says that evolutionists do not believe in miracles?

530 posted on 8/1/02 6:45 PM Pacific by gore3000
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To: VadeRetro

Contrary to what is said here, practically every species has its own unique hemoglobin and its own myoglobin. In fact, practically every protein is a molecular clock you can calibrate to measure evolutionary distance between organisms.

Completely untrue. If evolution were true then by looking at the differences in any gene for different species would give the same replica of the 'evolutionary tree'. However this is not so and what is most damaging to evolution is that the evolutionists doing this work know very well that it is not true. This one (PDF file) from Mammalian Genome presents a quite interesting example of evolution "science". First evolutionists tried to use mitochondrial DNA to show the relationships between the monotremes (platypus), the placentals (kangaroos) and the eutherians (all other mammals). The mtDNA did not give them the desired results "The value and accuracy of decades of morphological study have been discounted recently by mytochondrial DNA evidence". So of course the evos could not let that happen, so they had to try again. They then tried DNA hybridization. However, under this method also Darwinian theory was refuted "It is significant that apomorphies of the theran ancestors, such as the braincase, cranial nerve architecture, and reproductive physiology" had to be reclassified as convergences under these two tests. So of course they had to pick another test to get the results they wished - a totally new one called MP6/IG2FR!

Such is the way proofs of evolution are constructed - keep trying until you find a way. Different genetic tests give different results. That different tests give different evolutionary trees is a clear disproof of evolution. If all species descended from earlier species and each species in the different parts of the tree descended from another, then there needs to be in all genes the same order of descent and thus all the members of a family, an order, a taxa or whatever, need to have the same divergence in those genes as all other members of the family, order, taxa or whatever. That this is not true and that evolutionists need to "shop" the genes to use to prove their theory shows quite well that evolution is false. That they publicly announce this fraudulent method and that they are not thrown out for such unprofessional conduct shows quite well how totally bankrupt are those who work on evolution.

634 posted on 8/2/02 10:38 PM Pacific by gore3000
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To: VadeRetro

Many are neutral and many have been shown positive. Here's one example. Here's another.

There are many examples of supposedly duplicate genes. However, none have been experimentally shown to add anything to the species. Specifically a new gene needs to be expressed, controlled and called on to act by the rest of the organism, it needs to be expressed. That there are so many apparent duplicates and yet no one seems to be able to experimentally get a new duplicate to work is clear proof against evolution. In fact, real scientists are loath to say that a duplicate does indeed work. The two citations, one from your buddy Lindsay who is an absolute joke and says anything is a fact without substantiation and the other from a magazine do not contradict my statements.

1) The duplication may be helpful right off the bat.
2) Parents in sexual species very frequently have more than one child. Mine did. If a lizard has 40 offspring in one litter, maybe 20 of them carry a given parental gene.
3) Now that you have two copies of the gene, one can change. Yes, some mutations, perhaps most, are harmful but that's what natural selection weeds out.

1. extremely doubtful due to what I said above. In addition, even if it gave a somewhat better survival ability it would have to more than double it to get above the 100% chance of replication needed for it to in any way become fixed in a species. (see below).
2. Number of children does not matter because it is a question of population genetics. You know quite well that I have totally demolished that argument since I have posted it more than once. Here it is again:


As I have been pointing out, family size does not matter so long as it is the same as the average family size of the species. You can use any number you like and you will see that the new trait will dissappear. Since you like big numbers we shall use ten children each generation in a rather small species of only 1000 individuals:

Generation 1: 1 mutant and 999 non-mutants
Generation 2: 5 mutants and 9995 non-mutants
Generation 3: 25 mutants and 99975 non-mutants
Generation 4: 125 mutants and 999875 non-mutants
Generation 5: 625 mutants and 9999375 non-mutants


We started with mutants as .1% of the population, we ended with mutants as .0625% of the population. So obviously the mutation is losing ground, not gaining it as evolution would require.

And in addition to the above you can look at Andrew's Post#1641 Where using the craddle of evolutionism, the most biased site on the internet for evolution, TalkOrigins, he shows that even those folk refute your statement.


3. See my paragraph above.

Evolution postulates that a population changes over time, but it stays integrated and fully functional even as it drifts or else it will die out.

What evolutionary theory postulates is proof of nothing. It is the truth of those postulates which is what these threads are about, so your statement above is meaningless. Science and logic argue against that postulate. That a whole species would coevolve gradually through a bunch of mutations without becoming separate is itself a logical argument against evolution. The scientific arguments against it are presented in my post #347 and still stand unrefuted.

683 posted on 8/4/02 9:32 AM Pacific by gore3000
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1,187 posted on 08/12/2002 6:03:17 PM PDT by gore3000
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To: RightWingNilla
There is nothing here saying decreased viability under normal conditions.

You really have a lot of nerve! The very quote you post says it: " These changes were very specific for the selected substrate, often being accompanied by decreased specificities for other related substrates. ". Yup, for the original nutrients it works less well.

So what we have here is another example of a mutation which decreased the functioning of the system except in the one specific circumstance, and which did not add any new genetic information to the organism, and does not show, in any way the expression of any new mutated genes.

As it is obvious to anyone, you cannot have evolution without the addition of additional genetic information. A single celled organism has some 600 genes and some one million base pairs of DNA, a human has some 30,000 genes and some 3 billion base pairs of DNA. You cannot get from a bacteria to a man without adding new genetic information and you (and evolutionists) are still unable to show it ever happening.

1,188 posted on 08/12/2002 6:16:30 PM PDT by gore3000
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To: PatrickHenry
Desperately needed placemarker to rescue me from that hall-of-mirrors created by the prior post.
1,189 posted on 08/12/2002 6:17:17 PM PDT by PatrickHenry
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To: balrog666
Let me ask you a question. As you read these threads, have you ever seen any of Gore3000's posts proven wrong in any way?

There are certainly no refutations to any of the posts catalogued in my post# 1187 above. Just click on replies and you will see they were either totally ignored or show insulting responses.

1,190 posted on 08/12/2002 6:24:21 PM PDT by gore3000
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To: gore3000
Just click on replies and you will see they were either totally ignored or show insulting responses.

Gosh, just like your response to their posts.

Except they didn't ignore yours, they "refuted" yours, they "proved" yours wrong, they subjected yours to "real scientific analysis" the first time you posted them. Deal with it and move on.

1,191 posted on 08/12/2002 6:41:10 PM PDT by balrog666
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To: Junior
How exactly do we define it? -tribune7-

How 'bout:

1) Organisms change over time.
2) All organisms share a common ancestor.

Hmm, if what you say is what evolution is about then evolution is false:

1. There are numerous examples of organisms that have not changed over time: sharks, the coelacanth, even the oldest bacteria known are still the same today. In fact we still have examples of just about every single species that has walked on earth except for the dinosaurs. If species did indeed change over time, if they were constantly mutating, such would not be the case.

2. False again. The simplest organisms known - the eukaryotes, the prokaryotes and the archae have been shown to be genetically incompatible and to have in no way been able to descend one from the other. In addition to which I have given you the examples of the platypus and euglena which are chimeras of many different species and could in no way have descended from any species. If that is not bad enough, evolutionists have never been able to show a single species which has definitely transformed itself into another even though such examples should be extremely common if evolution were true.

1,192 posted on 08/12/2002 6:41:51 PM PDT by gore3000
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To: Doctor Stochastic
Or things like there are no duplicated genes?

I never said that. I said that duplicated genes do not work. A very big difference.

Or that the atmosphere is more massive than the ocean?

I never said such a thing, it is a blatant lie.

Or that neutral mutations must necessarioy die out?

I showed that neutral mutations will indeed die out in Post# 683 which has not been refuted.

You are again using the usual dishonest evolutionist tactics of misrepresenting what I said, not bothering to quote of course, and dishonestly claiming that a statement for which strong proof has been given is ridiculous. In other words, you are showing the total desperation of the evolutionist position which can only hope to keep itself afloat through smears and lies.

1,193 posted on 08/12/2002 6:53:01 PM PDT by gore3000
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To: VadeRetro
The funny thing, and the ultimate diagnostic of Holy Warrior Syndrome,

The ulitimate example of the Holy Warrior Syndrome is that the evos have not posted anything on the subject of this thread for hundreds of posts and instead just post insults and nonsense. Just about every item in post# 1887 has been discussed on one or another of these threads and on every one of them I have proven the evolutionists to be absolutely wrong so they just try to ignore my statements disproving evolution and try to discredit my statements by heaping concerted abuse on me just like they are trying to do with all those who disagree with evolution. I have been on these threads a long time and have seen many driven away by such totally despicable tactics. Well, guess what, I am not going away.

1,194 posted on 08/12/2002 7:04:11 PM PDT by gore3000
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To: PatrickHenry
Desperately needed placemarker to rescue me from that hall-of-mirrors created by the prior post.

Yup, it's called the Hall of Evolutionist Lameness. No insults, just facts. Something you and your fellows are not used to.

1,195 posted on 08/12/2002 7:10:09 PM PDT by gore3000
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To: gore3000
In fact we still have examples of just about every single species that has walked on earth except for the dinosaurs.

Breathtakingly silly, even for you. There have been several 90 percent-of-all-species extinctions. (Two of them frame the Mesozoic.) And the term "Dinosaur" isn't a species, it's two whole orders of reptiles containing probably thousands of species.

Your typical fossil, plant or animal, is something extinct. No more trilobites, ammonites, anomalocarids, any of those Vendian fauna (Spriggina, Hallucigenia, etc.) No more Pleistocene megafauna. No more synapsid reptiles. No more australopithecines. No more Caudipteryx, Archaeopteryx, Sinornithosaurus, Sinosauropteryx. No more Hyracotherium/eohippus. And the fossils of modern mammals and birds don't go very far down in the sediments. Especially genus Homo.

Another just flat wrong gore3000 propaganda blast.

1,196 posted on 08/12/2002 7:24:43 PM PDT by VadeRetro
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To: VadeRetro
I thought you were going to avoid the blue stuff.
1,197 posted on 08/12/2002 7:34:42 PM PDT by PatrickHenry
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To: VadeRetro
In fact we still have examples of just about every single species that has walked on earth except for the dinosaurs.

Breathtakingly silly, even for you. There have been several 90 percent-of-all-species extinctions.

A jawbone is not a species. Evolutionists play very fast and loose with the term species. We have examples of fish, amphibians, reptiles, mammals, all sorts of plants, all sorts of microscopic creatures also. All these have shown very little or no change since their first discovery. The only major categore we have no examples of are the dinosaurs as I have said, and that is why we know so little about them. Bones don't tell us beans and the numerous fragments which you and evolutionists call species tell us even less. Did dinosaurs have mammary glands? What evidence (not evolution says, I mean real honest too goodness evidence do we have) that they either did or they did not? None at all. Oh, and one more thing, the only true definition of species is that the individuals could not mate and produce fertile young with each other. What proof do you have that those bones could not produce young with existing species?????????????????????

1,198 posted on 08/12/2002 8:09:30 PM PDT by gore3000
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To: PatrickHenry
I thought you were going to avoid the blue stuff.

The lame one encouraging other evos to be as lame as he is. Or is it perhaps Patrick cracking the whip on his troops not to diverge from his orders to engage in a conspiracy of silence and character assassination against me?

1,199 posted on 08/12/2002 8:13:26 PM PDT by gore3000
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To: gore3000
1200 placemaker
1,200 posted on 08/12/2002 8:24:02 PM PDT by Tribune7
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