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Luther Was Right, Says Bishops Point Man ( Oklahoma Gov. Frank Keating )
National Catholic Register ^ | June 30-July 6, 2002 | WAYNE LAUGESEN

Posted on 07/07/2002 7:16:19 AM PDT by narses

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To: narses
Do we divorce in record numbers?

No, I think "annul" is the PC word of preference in Catholic circles.

41 posted on 07/07/2002 1:47:21 PM PDT by streetpreacher
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To: narses
Have we taken down the statues... so that the priest looks to the people instead of to God?

And how is looking at statues synonymous with looking at "God"? You must mean gods? Have you ever heard of idolatry?

42 posted on 07/07/2002 1:49:23 PM PDT by streetpreacher
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To: HowlinglyMind-BendingAbsurdity
Now you know why Wilton Gregory will never make Cardinal, although he may have a future as a demi-Machiavelli.

Gregory has set up this commission to fail with the most important judge of its work, the Vatican. Now when the Vatican opines that the Commission's work is insufficient or inadmissible, guess who takes the heat???

The VATICAN, of course.

43 posted on 07/07/2002 1:55:22 PM PDT by ninenot
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To: streetpreacher
"And how is looking at statues synonymous with looking at "God"? You must mean gods? Have you ever heard of idolatry?

It's always nice to have non-Catholics join our discussions. We are not afraid to discuss the Church's problems before them. But we are in a battle here for the real Church, and really can't afford to scatter our efforts in chasing red herrings from protestants who come on these discussions and immediately begin to trot out the same tired old canards.

You know as well as I do that Catholics do not worship statues. The statues are there because there were no photographs of the individuals represented. If you have photos in your wallet of your loved ones, you are doing the same thing as Catholics do when they place statues in their churches: We are adding images of those we love and whom we ask to join their prayers to ours. Do you carry a picture of your wife? Do you ask her to pray with or for you? Same difference.

Now. Back to the topic at hand: A spurious committee chosen by cowardly bishops. If you want to talk about that, feel free to join in. Otherwise...

44 posted on 07/07/2002 2:25:35 PM PDT by redhead
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To: saradippity
"I think it is very important that we know who was responsible for setting up this committee and then who was responsible for the initial appointments?We need to understand better,who we can trust is carrying out the commission of Christ to the Apostles to "teach all nations what I have taught you"."

Great idea, but how do we find this out...will this sort of info ever be accessible ? Would Bishop Bruskewitz (sp?) release it? Obviously the ones who set up this committee are a big part of the problem. Should we assume Bishop Wilton was involved?
45 posted on 07/07/2002 2:35:30 PM PDT by Domestic Church
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To: redhead
It's always nice to have non-Catholics join our discussions. We are not afraid to discuss the Church's problems before them. But we are in a battle here for the real Church, and really can't afford to scatter our efforts in chasing red herrings from protestants who come on these discussions and immediately begin to trot out the same tired old canards.

An article is titled "Luther is right" and you don't expect Protestants to take notice?! I notice many of the Catholics "interested only in the battle for the real church" were taking potshots at Luther as well. But you want Protestants to butt out of any "Catholic" post... man, you guys take this "higher-archy" thing seriously!

Do you carry a picture of your wife? Do you ask her to pray with or for you? Same difference.

Except, my wife is alive... and I know her personally. I never hung out with Paul, Peter or any of your "saints". Should God decide to take my wife home, I won't ask her corpse or a picture of her to join me in prayer. This is so superstitious.

Anyway, I'm content to let the subject drop, as I don't want to just be contentious. Feel free to offer a rebuttal, and I won't drag it out any longer (as O'Reilly likes to say, although never means it, "I'll give you the last word.")

On the issue at hand, I feel for your church being savaged by postmodernism, just as many Protestant churches are. Part of the problem is that we have not answered Postmodernism, but fall back on traditionalist/classical theistic positions that don't stand the test of close scrutiny. The post-modern generation offers us many challenges as well as opportunities, if we would realize it.

46 posted on 07/07/2002 2:54:27 PM PDT by streetpreacher
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To: Servant of the Nine
15 Beware of false prophets, who come to you in the clothing of sheep, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

16 By their fruits you shall know them. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit, and the evil tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can an evil tree bring forth good fruit.

19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit, shall be cut down, and shall be cast into the fire.

20 Wherefore by their fruits you shall know them.

47 posted on 07/07/2002 3:24:34 PM PDT by narses
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To: streetpreacher
Except, my wife is alive... and I know her personally. I never hung out with Paul, Peter or any of your "saints". Should God decide to take my wife home, I won't ask her corpse or a picture of her to join me in prayer. This is so superstitious.

Really? When a loved one dies and goes to Heaven, can they not hear you and see you? Are they not in a favored position to ask Our Lord to grant our prayers?

48 posted on 07/07/2002 3:28:22 PM PDT by narses
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To: narses
Dear narses,

Fr. Luther didn't start out as an archheretic. He started out as an orthodox Catholic priest concerned with corruption in the Catholic Church. Mr. Keating's comments about Fr. Luther concern the time prior to Fr. Luther's falling into heresy.

Perhaps the subtext of Mr. Keating's remark is that the Church does well to deal properly with the current crisis before it leads to the loss of faith, and the embrace of heresy, on the part of large numbers of currently devout Catholics. Perhaps he raises the specter of Fr. Luther to remind us that the consequences of a failure to reform are even greater evil.

Perhaps Mr. Keating appreciates the irony that Fr. Luther was concerned that the scandals and crises of the day would lead to widespread loss of faith, and he, himself, Fr. Luther, ultimately lost his faith as a result, and dragged many down to the loss of faith with him.

Frankly, I think that Frank may have a point here.

sitetest

49 posted on 07/07/2002 3:32:24 PM PDT by sitetest
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To: NYer
"This is a defining moment in the catholic church."

It is indeed.
50 posted on 07/07/2002 3:53:51 PM PDT by narses
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To: sitetest
Your charitable views speaks well of your spirit. My soul is scarred and darkened and perhaps my now cynical nature has taken the better of me, but the composition of this commission does not lead me to trust. Gov. Keating's comments may well be read as you (and others here) have read them, me I read them as an embrace of collegiality and Modernism and an advancement of a councilliar Church as opposed to an hierarchal Church. I hope and pray I am wrong and your view is correct.
51 posted on 07/07/2002 4:01:52 PM PDT by narses
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To: narses
Dear narses,

Thank you for the compliment.

It may be that your views coincide better with reality than mine.

But I'm willing to wait and watch and see what actually transpires before I criticize.

He's already shown sensitivity to the fact that he lacks any canonical authority. He seems to understand that the only authority that he can wield is moral authority, and only then by accurately reflecting the best of the consensus of the laity.

sitetest

52 posted on 07/07/2002 4:15:33 PM PDT by sitetest
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To: narses
You guys have a mess! A certain degree of sympathy for our Catholic friends.
53 posted on 07/07/2002 4:23:29 PM PDT by AEMILIUS PAULUS
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To: pgkdan
Keating is WRONG!


Well there goes any respect I had left for Gov. Keating. he should be forced to resign from the commission now. If he can't see his role in a Catholic light he's in the wrong church and certainly doesn't belong on this commission. Luther wrought more havoc on Christianity than anyone since Arius. To endorse him in his position is heresy. Are we, America's Roman Catholics, Lutherans now???


I agree!

54 posted on 07/07/2002 4:26:09 PM PDT by Lady In Blue
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To: narses
Shouldn't this thread be in the Religion section?
55 posted on 07/07/2002 4:26:43 PM PDT by Lady In Blue
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To: HowlinglyMind-BendingAbsurdity
I agree! And furthermore,I dont't want to see any kind of commission without priests or bishops in it.
56 posted on 07/07/2002 4:28:59 PM PDT by Lady In Blue
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To: sitetest
We will all wait. We still have the Sacraments and our own souls to guard. I pray for Holy Priests and I pray for those who aren't. Once again Holy Mother the Church is the scene of great battles. This isn't the first age when that is so, I doubt it will be the last. Gov. Keating may be the instrument of a miracle, I pray for that. Nonetheless, the composition of his commission is such that it will take a miracle I think.
57 posted on 07/07/2002 4:29:32 PM PDT by narses
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To: Servant of the Nine
Luther had intergrity?! This is the man that caused the break with the Church and this is the same man who,according to Scott Hahn only got in trouble with his bishop because he DID NOT submit his thesis to him for his inspection.
58 posted on 07/07/2002 4:32:27 PM PDT by Lady In Blue
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Comment #59 Removed by Moderator

To: Lady In Blue
I was uncertain of the protocol. This appears to be a hard news story about the Church. Do you know what the correct yardstick is?
60 posted on 07/07/2002 4:35:43 PM PDT by narses
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