Posted on 04/04/2002 8:06:56 PM PST by Pokey78
Our war is against terrorists with global reach. Palestinian terrorists do not have global reach. Their activities are confined almost entirely to Israel, with some activity in Lebanon.
And gaining Arab support to place another democracy in the middle-east, when they can't tolerate the one there now(Israel), is hopeless.
Egypt and Jordan both have friendly relations with Israel. Jordan and Israel even have a mutual defense treaty. Israel's relations with the Gulf States and Saudi Arabia are cordial at worst. This notion that all Arab states can't tolerate Israel is simply false. The only ones hostile to Israel are Syria, Iraq, and Libya.
The only reason we had their support in the Gulf war, was because we were replacing an authoritarian regime. Had we wanted to completely defeat and install a democracy, only Kuwait would have supported us.
Are you seriously suggesting that the form of government was the reason they did not want us to overthrow Saddam?
The only way to end the middle-east conflict is to break the will to fight of the authoritarian establishment. Which means overthrowing every monarch, dictator, and theocracy in the arab world.
So you want a war with every single Arab country. And I thought John McCain was nuts.
Also, where do you get this naive notion that democracy can work in every society? Or that a democratic regime will automatically be pro-US?
You are so wrong. Egypt signed a peace treaty with Israel to get back the sinai, which they could get back no other way. They stay semi non-beligerent because of the $2 billion dollars a year the US pays them to be nice. Jordan is a special situation, the internal threat of a palistinian take over of Jordan, means the king can't afford an external threat, and has had to walk a tight rope. You mention Syria, Iraq, and Libya as hostile to Israel but fail to mention Iran. And if Saudi Arabia is so cordial how come it has never recognized Israel's right to exsist, that was what the crown prince offered for an Israeli withdraw at the arab summit.
Where have you been? Attacks at the Olympics(munich), on cruise ships, airplane highjackings all over the world(entebi). And while we have enough problems with those terrorists who want to murder us, Israel still deserves our support as she faces the same problem.
Are you seriously suggesting that the form of government was the reason they did not want us to overthrow Saddam?
Of course. The authoritarian establishment wants to stay in power. If their people get a taste of the freedoms, and the economic benefits that democracy offers, their time in power is over and they know it.
So you want a war with every single Arab country. And I thought John McCain was nuts.
I don't want a war with every single arab country. I want to install a democracy in Iraq, and promote internal revolutions in the rest. Besides their at war with us already, they use deniable agents like al Qeada, but it's their money.
Also, where do you get this naive notion that democracy can work in every society? Or that a democratic regime will automatically be pro-US?
Democracy can work in every society. What makes you think it can't? The multiculturalists would have us believe that authoritarian government is cultural, like a peoples dress, cuisine, or music but it's not. The authoritarians absolutely want everyone to think their culture can't exsist without them. So who's being naive? I don't think I ever said democratic countries were automatically pro-US. I just think that the people of a democratic country will consider the interests of the people. Unlike authoritarian countries where the only interests considered are of those in power(how can we steal more money? how can we stay in power? etc...).
Ancient history. All the terrorist attacks against US targets within the last 20 years have been by non-Palestinian terrorists: Libyans, Iranians, Al-Qaeda, etc. Hamas has never attacked us, neither has Islamic Jihad, neither has Arafat's groop. Hizbolla attacked our Marine base in Lebanon, but that was because we were sticking our noses where they don't belong.
And while we have enough problems with those terrorists who want to murder us, Israel still deserves our support as she faces the same problem.
Why should Israel deserve our support if that support hurts us?
Of course. The authoritarian establishment wants to stay in power. If their people get a taste of the freedoms, and the economic benefits that democracy offers, their time in power is over and they know it.
The authoritarian establishment. Yes, the great authoritarian conspiracy. Tell me, why is Pakistan, which has an authoritarian regime, supporting our efforts in Afganistan?
I don't want a war with every single arab country. I want to install a democracy in Iraq, and promote internal revolutions in the rest.
What makes you think the "internal revolutions" as you put it will create secular democratic regimes rather than Taliban-style Islamic fundamentalist regimes? Do you honestly believe that a revolution in Jordan or Saudi Arabia or Egypt would produce a pro-US democracy? Are you high?
Besides their at war with us already, they use deniable agents like al Qeada, but it's their money.
So according to you, Egypt, Jordan, Yemen, and Kuwait are at war with us already by supporting organizations like Al Qaeda. Do you have any proof, or is this just a gut feeling?
Democracy can work in every society. What makes you think it can't?
Because it's been tried in many primitive societies and it failed. Pakistan, Chile (before Pinochet modernized it),Zimbabwe, South Africa, and Russia are just a few examples that come to mind. There are countless others.
It's really got nothing to do with culture but rather modernity. The empricial reality is that democracy cannot function effectivly in a pre-modern society that has not developed certain instiutions and whose populace has not reached a certain level of education and sophistication.
It's not 1979 anymore. Egypt, up until a few weeks ago, has had very friendly relations with Israel. They have even participated in joint military exercises for crying out loud. Yes, the US aid does help keep them nice as you put it, but the fact remains that relations between Israel and Egypt up until a few weeks ago were very good.
Jordan is a special situation, the internal threat of a palistinian take over of Jordan, means the king can't afford an external threat, and has had to walk a tight rope.
Whatever. The fact remains Jordan has, up until a couple weeks ago, been very friendly with Israel.
You mention Syria, Iraq, and Libya as hostile to Israel but fail to mention Iran.
Iran is not Arab.
And if Saudi Arabia is so cordial how come it has never recognized Israel's right to exsist, that was what the crown prince offered for an Israeli withdraw at the arab summit.
Saudi Arabia is not friendly to Israel, but they are not hostile either. They trade with Israel. They have diplomatic contact. I'm not sure, but I believe they even have an embassy in Israel. I'll have to check this.
Anyway, much of this is beside the point. If you are an American, Arab relations with Israel are of secondary importance. Of primary importance is Arab relations with the U.S. The fact is that Jordan, Egypt, Yemen, and Kuwait have had friendly relations with us and have cooperated with us many times in the past. We need them to work with us to fight this war on terror.
The Saudis have been less cooperative, but they have also been helpful. They froze accounts of people suspected of giving money to Al Qaeda, for example. The fact that their government is Islamic fundamentalist does not help things, but they have as big an interest as we do in seeing Al Qaeda destroyed. Remember, one of Bin Laden's goals is to bring down the Saudi Monarchy, and you can rest assured that whatever replaces the Saudi Monarchy, if it goes down, will not be a secular, pro-US democracy.
If Egypt is or was such a good friend, explain why they don't understand that Israel has to do something about the terrorist attacks. After all Egypt has suffered terribly from the terrorists, and has had difficulty dealing with them. So why don't they sympathize?
Whatever. The fact remains Jordan has, up until a couple weeks ago, been very friendly with Israel.
Again why can't Jordan sympathize with Israel? After all Jordan fought a war with the palistinians, and killed more than Israel ever has. So why can't Jordan understand that Israel faces the same problem Jordan had to deal with?
Iran is not Arab.
Why should it matter what flavor an enemy is? Iran is a serious funder and supplier of the movements to destroy Israel. As a Theocracy, they are just another authoritarian government intent on destroying the democracy in their zone of influence.
Saudi Arabia is not friendly to Israel, but they are not hostile either. They trade with Israel. They have diplomatic contact. I'm not sure, but I believe they even have an embassy in Israel. I'll have to check this.
There is no embassy. And how can you call the $5,300 that Saudi Arabi gives suicide bombers families, not hostile? How does this payment differ from the $10,000 and now $25,000 that Iraq gives the bombers families? Saudi Arabia is the most two faced of the middle-eastern nations, smiling at you while they knife you in the back.
Anyway, much of this is beside the point. If you are an American, Arab relations with Israel are of secondary importance. Of primary importance is Arab relations with the U.S. The fact is that Jordan, Egypt, Yemen, and Kuwait have had friendly relations with us and have cooperated with us many times in the past. We need them to work with us to fight this war on terror.
Even a brief survey of our friends support in the war on terrorism, shows a grudging support at best. This is because almost all of the funding and recruits, are coming from the highest levels of these nations society.
The Saudis have been less cooperative, but they have also been helpful. They froze accounts of people suspected of giving money to Al Qaeda, for example. The fact that their government is Islamic fundamentalist does not help things, but they have as big an interest as we do in seeing Al Qaeda destroyed. Remember, one of Bin Laden's goals is to bring down the Saudi Monarchy, and you can rest assured that whatever replaces the Saudi Monarchy, if it goes down, will not be a secular, pro-US democracy.
I notice they haven't arrested anyone, and I read that many accounts weren't frozen. When 15 of 19 911 attackers were Saudi Arabian, and most of the funding and recruits to al Qeada came from Saudi Arabia, don't you find it strange that their seem to be no terrorists in Saudi Arabia to arrest? I think the Saudi's view Bin Laden's stated goal of removing them as just a family arguement, because they exiled him. They may even have asked him to do it, to provide them with plausible deniablity, while they provide support under the table.
It's true that Reagan bombed the piss out of Libya, and there seems to have been a change in the their strategy, or their resources at that time. I not sure if it was the loss of the USSR's support as it began to crumble, which cost them world wide logistical support. Or it could have been that they just decided, it wasn't worth it to wake up the sleeping giant of american power.
Why should Israel deserve our support if that support hurts us?
Why should it hurt us? Maintaining a moral position is generally a good policy and strategy. Nepoleon said "the moral is to the physical as 10 to 1" this indicates that our eventual victory depends on sound moral policy. This means what's good for the US, must apply to our alies as well. We are at war with terrorism, and a suicide attack on the US can be treated no different than one on some other nation. The policy must be Justly applied or moral superiority is lost.
The authoritarian establishment. Yes, the great authoritarian conspiracy. Tell me, why is Pakistan, which has an authoritarian regime, supporting our efforts in Afganistan?
I said nothing about a conspiracy, just that the authoritarians have a common self interest in staying in power. This leads them into making the same responses to the threat posed by democracy. As for Pakistan, it was given a offer it couldn't refuse. It was, "give us access to Afghanistan, or we start with Pakistan, and take that access". Oh! and here's 30 pieces of silver to sooth your outrage. Pakistan has been fighting a rear guard political action ever since, to make it seem like they weren't forced.
What makes you think the "internal revolutions" as you put it will create secular democratic regimes rather than Taliban-style Islamic fundamentalist regimes? Do you honestly believe that a revolution in Jordan or Saudi Arabia or Egypt would produce a pro-US democracy? Are you high?
I wish I was high. What makes you think we would support anything but democratic revolutions, or that any revolution would succeed without our support. The authoritarians are very good at suppressing the street, and rooting out political enemys. You are also ignoring the fact that the authoritarian regimes will quickly see which way the wind is blowing, and seek compromises like a constitutional monarchy, which will allow them to keep some power. It wouldn't happen quickly but the overall level of freedom and democracy would slowly rise in the middle-east. While they wouldn't all be pro-american democracy's, any democracy will have more incommon with us, than an authoritarian government.
So according to you, Egypt, Jordan, Yemen, and Kuwait are at war with us already by supporting organizations like Al Qaeda. Do you have any proof, or is this just a gut feeling?
I think the victory dances in the streets on 911 answered that question quite well. If their our friends, why were they so happy with thousands of american deaths, and the terrible destruction of downtown NY. What more evidence do you need? Would a signed confession even satisfy you.
Because it's been tried in many primitive societies and it failed. Pakistan, Chile (before Pinochet modernized it),Zimbabwe, South Africa, and Russia are just a few examples that come to mind. There are countless others.
Democracy has never failed. Many nations which move to democracy, often back slide. Democracy isn't easy to impliment, which is why nation building has gotten a bad reputation. It requires several supporting institutions, like a free press, a sound and fair justice system, a loyal army, and private property rights. It took France 5 different governments before they finally began to get it right. Germany also had implimentation problems. With the exception of Cuba, some other islands, and maybe Venezuala, all of the americas are now democratic, where that wasn't true at all even 20 years ago. But all nations which start on the road to Democracy, will eventually get there.
It's really got nothing to do with culture but rather modernity. The empricial reality is that democracy cannot function effectivly in a pre-modern society that has not developed certain instiutions and whose populace has not reached a certain level of education and sophistication.
I agree it has nothing to do with culture. I also agree that democracy needs a number of supporting institutions(see above). I disagree however that education or sophistication are needed. Very few americans in the early US could read or write, nor were they sophisticated as most were common farmers and backwoods men. It's also true that neither sophisticated markets, high technology, industrialization, or a long democratic tradtion are needed. I believe that every nation on earth is a candidate for democracy, and that all would benefit from it.
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