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To: Hard Case
Not to be a hard case or anything but, seeing how private property is the cornerstone of a free society, I only have one question for you. Do you wipe your ass with the Constitution every time you go to the bathroom?

We live not as isolated individuals but as a society, in which people can have conflicting legitimate interests. As such, private property is not the cornerstone of a free society, but merely one expression of it.

The real basis of a free society is an underlying set of agreed-upon moral principles which allow for the just and proper resolution of legitimate conflicts. It is that agreement, and the enforcement of that agreement, which is the cornerstone of a free society. Unfortunately for you, that moral framework has to include factors beyond purely property-based considerations.

By limiting the basis of freedom to property, you exclude all non-property costs from the realm of legitimate interpersonal conflict.

I note, by the way, that the "free society" of old -- and it was in many ways much freer than today's -- recognized those non-property costs, and codified them in a variety of ways.

Now, getting down to hard cases -- do you flush every ounce of perspective and common sense down the toilet when you go to the bathroom?

137 posted on 03/20/2002 2:14:54 PM PST by r9etb
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To: r9etb
Here is a quote for you that a fellow FReeper supplied a while back that I believe is very appropriate.

John Locke: "The great chief end therefore, of Mens uniting into Commonwealths, and putting themselves under Government, is the Preservation of their Property." He also said, "Whenever the legislators endeavor to take away and destroy the property of the people, or to reduce them to slavery under arbitrary power, they put themselves into a state of war with the people, who are thereupon absolved from any further obedience..." --2nd Treatise of Government, 1690 the principal absolute rights which appertain to every Englishman,"

154 posted on 03/20/2002 4:00:44 PM PST by Crusader21stCentury
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To: r9etb
As such, private property is not the cornerstone of a free society, but merely one expression of it.

So private property is not necessary for a free society? We just don't need it? We will have to disagree here. If you have nothing you can call your own then there is no freedom. The country started out as an agrarian society. You made your living off your land. If some commisar of the state told you that you couldn't plant that crop or some other easment, they were killed. And rightly so. But alas, there really is no private property ownership in the USA anymore. Don't belive me? Don't pay your property taxes and find out. This would explain why you can be killed for you siding falling down. It would also expalin why alot of us are so enraged by the system you love so much. The system that started out pretty well but has become adulterated by the statist mindset. Perverted well beyond any comprehension our founding fathers could have ever imagined.

The real basis of a free society is an underlying set of agreed-upon moral principles which allow for the just and proper resolution of legitimate conflicts. It is that agreement, and the enforcement of that agreement, which is the cornerstone of a free society. Unfortunately for you, that moral framework has to include factors beyond purely property-based considerations.

Agreements are broken all the time, the only thing that is real is the tangible. For the subjective, a capitalist society deals in contractual law. In essence, the Constitution is a contract on the limitation of the federal government's involement in the everyday life of the citizen. Well that has been broken. Do you disagree? The system has become so twisted and corrupt over the decades that now there remains no recourse in the courts against the perpetrator. So now you recive a shovel of sh*t and are trained to give thanks and ask for more. A lightyear behind where early Americans were.

By limiting the basis of freedom to property, you exclude all non-property costs from the realm of legitimate interpersonal conflict.

Your authoritarian colors show brightly by this statement. Bill Clintonesque. Americans just have too much darn freedom right? Got to limit that freedom stuff, it is bad. If you want a gurantee, have everyone sign a contract willingly. Like minded people will gravitate towards each other. The whole freedom of association thing, that is if you feel that is permissable. Otherwise, no one ever guaranteed you a damn thing in this life, Jack.

I note, by the way, that the "free society" of old -- and it was in many ways much freer than today's -- recognized those non-property costs, and codified them in a variety of ways.

Okay, name some.

Now, getting down to hard cases -- do you flush every ounce of perspective and common sense down the toilet when you go to the bathroom?

No, I just flush the need to be a statist. Individualism is based on sacrifice of the many for freedom of the individual. Collectivism is based on sacrifice of the individual for the good of the many. Where do you stand? There is no middle ground.

162 posted on 03/20/2002 7:32:59 PM PST by Hard Case
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