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To: maro
Living creatures are not cartoons--they are highly complex machines in which chemical reactions play the part of gears and levers. In each step that you describe, there are hundreds of unresolved questions.

You asked how we get from light-sensitive cells to a mammalian eye. In terms of phylogeny, the phenotypes organize rather neatly along that path. Of course it's a gross simplification - web boards are not generally conducive to book-length theses, and my time would not permit me such an indulgence in any case ;)

If you would like more detail, I am sure that I can find some more in-depth material to suggest to you. However, since you have asked a few specific questions, I will try to answer them as best I can.

For example, what benefit is any kind of "lens" before the eye is fully functional?

Ah. At what step, precisely, that I propose, is there an eye that is less than fully functional?

And where is the co-evolution of the central nervous system in all this? An eye is useless without a CNS.

Insects have eyes without a central nervous system. But the question is a valid one. You should have asked it instead if that was what you were really interested in ;)

More seriously, as the resolving power and level of detail that eyes are capable of perceiving increases, there is indeed a rise in nervous system capacity as well. Which isn't particularly surprising - what good are superb eyes without some means of interpreting and making sense of what you see? And, of course, that's just one of the many functions of our complex and highly developed brains. But complex and highly developed brains like ours are not a requirement for superior visual acuity - many birds, for example, have very complex and well-developed visual cortexes (and finely tuned eyes, of course) that permit them eyesight that far exceeds our own. But if your eyesight is not even in the same league as an owl's, neither is the owl's brain in the same league as yours.

Yes, some development of a nervous system is necessary as eyes develop also, but I don't recall claiming otherwise.

More than useless--wasted resources that would be selected AGAINST.

Why? Why do men have nipples that are apparently completely useless?

You come closer to your real position when you say that just because something cannot be understood now doesn't mean it isn't true.

That is not my position regarding evolution. In fact, if you go back and re-read my post, I think you will find that what I say is that just because you cannot understand it does not mean it isn't true. And I suppose I should add that it also does not follow that if you cannot understand it, no one can understand it ;)

You have your faith; the UFOlogists have theirs; the theists have theirs. Darwinism rests on a secular materialist faith.

I think not. Like all inductive arguments, it establishes probabilities of truth, not absolute certainties. Nonetheless, we all accept as true all sorts of things that cannot be logically proven true every day of our lives. The question is not "can it be proven true?", but rather "is the bulk of the evidence falling one way or the other?" And it is.

Evolution via natural selection best explains the evidence before us, far better than any alternate explanation. I find it highly unlikely that a competing theory will muster sufficient evidence to displace it, but it would be foolish to forever foreclose the possibility.

It's not science--at least not yet.

What about it do you find unscientific?

The big question for biological science in the 21st century is WHERE this software comes from.

Setting aside for a moment the question of whether software is an apt analogy, I think that a naturalistic explanation is more than sufficient.

Really, I think we're getting at the crux of your objection, so let me make some preemptory statements here. First, finding evolution via natural selection to be a compelling theory for the development and diversity of life on earth is not a priori incompatible with a belief in the divine. Even among scholars of evolution, Richard Dawkins is an anomaly insofar as he is a militant atheist. At worst, what evolution via natural selection is incompatible with are certain very literal readings of the Bible. And conflicts of that sort are really quite easy to avoid in the first place if we accept that God might occasionally speak in allegorical or metaphorical terms. ;)

547 posted on 03/26/2002 9:16:10 PM PST by general_re
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To: general_re
A lens, an optic nerve, and a brain must all evolve at the same time, as well as many other necessary mechanisms. You just can't construct a photomorph progression of believable, functional intermediates--putting together a list of eyes in ascending order of complexity does NOT prove that natural selection is what has caused the progression. Your position is non-scientific because it is nonfalsifiable. Despite its extreme implausibility (which you have essentially admitted at times on this thread--for example, that ridiculous digression into introns), you cling to it. I agree with you a belief in God can survive an orthodox Darwinism. That is because theism is also nonfalsifiable--it is not science either, but then it never claimed to be. Imagine that human spacefarers land on Alpha Centauri and are greeted by highly complex sentient robots whose workings consist of gears and levers and microchips of the most sophisticated kind, and a self-replicating mechanism. The robots believe in a Robot Darwin, who teaches that the robots are the product of evolution by natural selection. In fact, the archaeology of the planet indicates that older generations of robots included more primitive forms, and that one can trace a kind of "evolution" of robot forms. We, having created our own much more primitive robots on the same principles, suspect that the robots were created, and did not arise spontaneously. But the robots get very mad when we delicately suggest that creation is a possibility, and that the "evolution" visible in the archaeological record makes perfectly good sense, since the creator race refined their technology over time, and built on previous designs the way that all good engineers do. How could we disprove the robots, assuming there was no archaeological record of the creator race? To every objection about the plausibility of robots evolving by the mutation (bit flips) and natural selection, they offer the same arguments you do.
548 posted on 03/27/2002 7:33:18 PM PST by maro
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