Posted on 02/25/2002 11:01:41 PM PST by fortheDeclaration
Maybe it's just that these things become a blur after a while.
Argument based on combination of Arminian points 1,2,3 above with Wesleyan conscience and Romans 2. Surely you remember.
I know you can figure it out. We don't even need to go through it again. Just refer to the posted Arminian points.
Just lookin' for a little debate, huh? LOL!!
I'm gonna definitely get these arguments narrowed down to numbered debates. Then we can just refer to them by number.
I'll expand the constructs above in that direction.
Prove.
I'll definitely not "prove" it to your satisfaction. I will to mine. It will convince some posters, lurkers, etc. It will receive support from the Arminians and quasi-Arminians.
The bible, though, tells me to "work out my OWN salvation with fear and trembling." It doesn't tell me to work out YOURS.
Do you believe that God has a separate plan of salvation for those who do not hear the Gospel? Yes or no is all I need right now. I didn't think that I had heard you say this, although another non-Calvinist, wc, used it yesterday.
Do you agree with him that God has a "Plan B" for those who do not hear the Gospel message?
(Good thing my Chaplain buddy s running late!)
well, they've never really explained why we should accept Christ as our Saviour and follow Him when God makes all the choices and we're going to heaven or hell despite what we choose--not because what we choose.
Jerry, from day one when I entered the other thread, I have admitted my frailties, my failings, my stumbling as I try to proclaim what I believe. John Wesley never shied from calling sinners to repentance, and I am doing nothing other than pointing out the sin of pride.
You are all so blinded by your own pride and arrogance that you can't see it. You are so convinced of your own scriptural accuracy. You are so convinced of your own Biblical interpretations. You are so convinced of your own spiritual authority. You allow no room for debate. You allow no room for disagreement. All you can do is scream that you're right and others are wrong.
You cannot see the arrogance of claiming that in 2000 years of church history, marked with bitter and often violent debate that you're the ones with the answers. You're the ones that finally figured it all out. You're the only ones with the truth.
How dare anyone on this thread have the audacity to challenge your views? You are indeed perfect, perhaps divine.
Jerry, I am a sinner saved by grace. I have offended you and I have offended others.
I am sorry for the careless words I have spoken. But it is not careless to call sin sin. Pride is sin.
Like the Apostle Paul, I struggle daily with the humanity that causes me to do and to say the things I do not want to do. I plead daily for His mercy. I plead daily for His grace.
Do you?
Do you have to have 2 per car, or do you ride with a cop? There's obviously danger involved. I assume as a chaplain that you're unarmed....correct?
I envy what you're doing. I love that stuff.
Anyway, I'm not sure what your question is. When I get around to it, you tell me if I violated what you're concerned about. I honestly do believe that God judges those who've never heard of Christ by an older standard of faith.....almost a dispensational argument....if one's level of enlightenment is the equivalent of any old dispensation of grace, then that is the criteria on which judgement will be based.
I'm not an eschatological dispensationalist, but I tend that direction in terms of revealed grace.
Personally, I'm glad we have free will. I'm glad there are clear choices put before me. I'm glad I have the opportunity, again and again, to chose life over death, to chose good over evil. I consider free will to be a gift from God. How awful to live a life unchallenged, I can't imagine.
And don't forget that before God banished Adam and Eve from the Garden, He lovingly made them their leather garments and clothed them. He replaced their fig leaves with something that would give them greater protection against the cold and harsh world they were about to enter.
Even then, after the sin against God, God was a loving God who protects his chosen. Same with the mark of Cain. Same with Noah and the ark. Same with Aaron and the golden calf. Same with the Israelites as they ignored Torah (law) again and again.
God's acknowledgement and anger against "man's" sins is always followed by God's forgiveness and providence.
This thought just came to me, and I'm not trying to be sarcastic, let me make that clear. Perhaps God got tired of continually forgiving us and renewing his covenant with us and this is why He sent his only Son to die on the cross for our sins.
Any thoughts on that one?
I know that if I put out a call I can have a police officer on the scene in minutes, but my protection comes from the Lord who has commissioned me for my ministry. As a Calvinist, I know that His will is going to be done, that I will not die one minute before my appointed time, nor live one second longer than He has ordained.
Honestly, I don't believe that I could perform this duty if I held to a non-Calvinist theology.
I chaplained for 20 years in the military and in 2 war zones. I've prayed over more than 200 dead bodies all told.
We Arminians do it because "we believe that what we do makes a difference."
Sincere question--do you really think that we don't believe He has appointed our time of death? We believe the same thing.
These definitions are all either offered by calvinists on this thread or are condensations of definitions on this site recommended by JerryM: Calvinist Tulip Definition Site recommended by Jerry
T - - Total Depravity means that Natural Man is totally sinful and does not ever WANT in his own spirit to know Christ.
U - - Unconditional Election means that God has elected for His own glory, in accordance with His own will and without regard for the merit of those elected, some for salvation and some to be left in their sins.
L - - Limited Atonement means that Christ died specifically and only for the sins of those who would ever truly believe in Him.
I - - Irresistible Grace means that the elect are incapable of resisting the Holy Spirit's inward call to repentance and salvation.
P - - Perseverance of the Saints means that all those who are truly saved will certainly be brought to heaven and to glorification and will never be lost.
These Arminian definitions are found in the Wycliffe Dictionary of Theology and are condensed in that work by a Calvinist, Roger Nicole(Gordon Divinity School). I will take some liberties with them for the sake of clarification. They are the views of Jacob Hermann (Armin) a former student of Calvin who came to doubt Calvin's theology.
1. - - God elects only on the basis of foreseen faith and condemns only on the basis of resistance to grace.
2. - - Christ provided a universal opportunity by dying for all men and for every man such that ALL those who turn to him as true repentant believers are saved.
3. - - Man is so depraved that foreplanned divine intervention and preceding divine grace are necessary to bring about faith or any good deed.
4. - - According to the foreplanning of God, man was created with the ability to resist Divine Grace.
5. - - It is not certain that all who are truly regenerate will necessarily persevere in the faith.
I answered Ortho's "T" question last night as I said I would once I completed the basic posting. (We still disagree....there's a surprise.) You 2 should live up to your word and edit the remaining TULIP definitions. I'm sincere in my desire to have them be accurate. You can look at it as a continual process of editing until you finally work them into the shape you want. I'll do the same with the Arminian stuff.
Fair enough. I think, though, that I've just figured out I'm not getting pinged if my screen name isn't capitalized.
Am I correct or is that another one of my heresies? ;-)
Nah. I sometimes don't ping until I see the person up and roaming about for the day.
That's what I meant.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.