Posted on 02/25/2002 11:01:41 PM PST by fortheDeclaration
Referring to me? Despite your denials, I believe in and obey the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and despite your accusations, the other non-Calvinists did not choose me as an ally. I post independently.
Tell the truth, Terry. God is watching.
To the person contemplating suicide: Don't do it, it doesn't solve anything. You only have more to deal with on the other side.
To the grieving survivors of one who has apparently committed suicide: God knows much more than we do about the individual circumstances. God is loving, fair and just. Leave it in God's hands, confident that many things turn out better than we think they are going to. Some apparent suicides, we later find out, were really unfortunate accidents. Be as positive about it as you can, and comfort others as much as you can, knowing that your knowledge is limited right now. God loves you, and God loves the person who died.
It would be useful to see you try to explain it. I think I know why you don't (because it doesn't hold together, or because you just say you have to believe two contradictory things).
What you Calvinists say to yourselves to justify your misinterpretations of the Bible is not binding on anyone else. Our obligation is not to properly understand Calvinism, but to properly understand the Word of God.
Your #1098: God foreknew all the actions of Hitler.God knew exactly what Hitler would do . God allowed Hitler to do as he wanted to do. This non action on the part of God accomplish HIS purposes! Did God predestine the works of Hitler by His non action?
The Calvinist doctrine presented here is that the god they propose predetermined (rather than "allowed") Hitler's actions and inactions, the god's own actions, usually through others (rather than "non action"), and everybody else's actions and inactions, all coming together to determine what would happen. The view is that the god made everything happen that happened, not letting Hitler have a say in any of it (except that he thought he had free will -- an illusion of depravity).
Your idea of the god withholding actions that could change the outcome implies that somebody is making their own free will choices out there that are not predetermined by the god, and that the god has to decide whether to do anything about it.
You had better report for reindoctrination soon. :-) You are not quite toeing the Calvinist line.
Ward: Gee thanks, Woody. But I dunno.
Woody keeps trying to tell me what I believe. You won't get an accurate, unbiased view from him. He says he likes to "poison the well", but only succeeds in poisoning his own. Another example of unregenerate behavior.
Great job!
Ya have a different gospel WM. I love you enough to tell you that.
It also means that what you say has no impact here because you do not hold the same gospel as we do.
I love you WM, you are a very nice man...but nothing you have to say spiritually has any impact on the discussion between Arminins and Calvinists.
I don't have much time for FR, but I thought I would raise a question which you don't seem to have thought a whole lot about, Ace. I'll let you fellows think about it.
What constitutes "acceptance of the offer"?
An offer, by definition, has terms. Acceptance of an offer entails compliance with the terms. And what are the terms in the offer?
Most evangelicals say "faith." But what constitutes faith? Is it mental assent to a set of doctrinal propositions? And how is repentance involved in true faith?
And is repentance something which follows faith, as in the resolution to turn over a new leaf? Or is the repentance which characterizes saving faith more profound than that?
We Calvinists say it is more profound than the Arminians realize.
...while I say it is more simple that you realize.
God "offers" His gift to us. The terms of the offer? That we accept that gift. That's it.
Acceptance means you take God and his Son to be the ruler over your life, and to repent of your sins. It is not complicated, and there are no hidden ramifications. When asked "how do I be saved?" the answer was never full of doctrine and being sure of the order of events. No--the answer always given was "Repent, and be baptized." Simple, and straightforward. No doctrine was mentioned and no theologian was ever quoted as being the authority on how to do it, or what the order of events should be.
I am asking you to tell us what saving faith is. And you are balking. Why is that?
I think much of what passes for saving faith is the faith of devils. Please be more careful. This is serious stuff. To dismiss my question is not a good idea.
I'll drop off the thread and read the follow-up discussion as my schedule permits.
Does anything co-exist eternally with the Triune God? Or is He all that is eternal?
Jean
The TRUTH does 1 of 2 things: it either convicts and converts or it hardens.
First, Mom, I don't believe your allowed to love the unregenerate. Somewhere in all of these posts, perhaps another thread even, one of your Calvinist brethren - who may or may not be involved in our current discussion said "yes, God hates the non-elect, I hate the non-elect."
Second, we have now established that our Calvinist friends believe the following statement:
Calvinism is good because the Mormons believe it is bad.
Can't you see how absurd your argument is? The truth is not relative. Eternal truths are eternal truths regardless of who subscribes to them.
Because...
Mormons say adultery is bad...
Do Calvinists say adultery is good?
Because...
Mormons say murder is bad...
Do Calvinists say murder is good?
Because...
Mormons say incest is bad...
Do Calvinists say incest is good?
By your thoughts, by your arguments that there are no spiritual truths which Mormons can hold that we can agree with then you are saying that:
Calvinists approve of adultery, murder and incest.
Of all the absurdities you have offered on this thread and others, this one takes the cake.
Gee, I hope Mormons don't like cake, 'cause I do.
Just in case you all missed it.
Matthew - Chapter 23
:13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in [yourselves], neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.
14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.
15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.
16 Woe unto you, [ye] blind guides, which say, Whosoever shall swear by the temple, it is nothing; but whosoever shall swear by the gold of the temple, he is a debtor!
17 [Ye] fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gold, or the temple that sanctifieth the gold?
:18 And, Whosoever shall swear by the altar, it is nothing; but whosoever sweareth by the gift that is upon it, he is guilty.
19 [Ye] fools and blind: for whether [is] greater, the gift, or the altar that sanctifieth the gift?
20 Whoso therefore shall swear by the altar, sweareth by it, and by all things thereon.
21 And whoso shall swear by the temple, sweareth by it, and by him that dwelleth therein.
:22 And he that shall swear by heaven, sweareth by the throne of God, and by him that sitteth thereon.
:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier [matters] of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
:24 [Ye] blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.
25 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.
26 [Thou] blind Pharisee, cleanse first that [which is] within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.
27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead [men's] bones, and of all uncleanness.
28 Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.
29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,
30 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.
31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.
32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
33 [Ye] serpents, [ye] generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and [some] of them ye shall kill and crucify; and [some] of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute [them] from city to city:
35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
:36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, [thou] that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under [her] wings, and ye would not!
38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed [is] he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
Deu 11:16 Take heed to yourselves, that your heart be not deceived, and ye turn aside, and serve other gods, and worship them;
Thank you Jerry and Woody and OP and Doc..you were all right. I have always really been a Calvinist..because I have never been willing to compromise the Gospel of Jesus Christ!
What scares you about TRUTH?
Or are you saying that because you have grace the law no longer matters, so then you are saying that:
Calvinists approve of adultery, murder and incest?
What gospel is that in? Either you say those things are againts God's law and grace, or you agree with the Mormons.
Which is it?
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