Posted on 02/18/2002 8:54:15 PM PST by rwfromkansas
Yeah, I know. A accept!
Could you please post the quotes where anyone on this board has made such an assertion in their argument against Calvinism?
I've never heard such a thing in my life...but I must admit I haven't read all the posts on this board.
It couldn't be you are distoring and exagerating another's position in order to find something you feel comfortable arguing against? Could it?
Stop making the Almighty into some begging dog.
Saying it is his EFFECTUAL AND NEVER-FAILING WILL TO SAVE EVERYONE MAKES HIM A FAILURE IF YOU ARE RIGHT AND THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE FREAKING IOTA OF EVIDENCE TO SUGGEST SOME MYTHICAL DESIRE FOR MAN TO HAVE A FREE WILL IS MORE IMPORTANT....IF THERE WAS, IT WOULD BE SPELLED OUT CLEAR AS DAY IN SCRIPTURE!!!! Stop making the Almighty into some begging dog.
Yeah, it does; and Total Depravity as well. Opps!
Genesis 6:8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.
Again, more free-will actions. Doesn't say "But Noah was predestined to behave righteously toward God".
Nor does it say that due to Noah's vaunted free will he actually did behave righteously toward God. Grace--receiving specifically without regard to merit on the part of the receipient. But, please don't stop. You are obviously having a gay old time.
Ephesians 1--God chose us
Yes!--wouldn't have had quite the glorifying effect though. Next question!
You too!
Who said it is His "EFFECTUAL AND NEVER-FAILING WILL"???
Cite the post and show the quote.
Of course you cannot do so...because nobody ever said such a thing.
The idea that a "desire" for something must be interpreted as "EFFECTUAL AND NEVER-FAILING WILL" defies any normal reading of scripture.
It seems when Calvinists are unable to respond to those who challange them.....they resort to assigning them positions which they feel most comfortable arguing against.
Stop making the Almighty into some begging dog.
LOL! Now God actually desiring people trust and love Him makes Him a "begging dog"!
How silly.
This is exactly what I was refering to above.
1 Tim. 2:4--does it mean each and every single person without exception... If this is your position, then you are guilty of it. Opps! Go back and read the post again.
1 Timothy 2:4 ...Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
In my daily reading Bible this is translated as desire. Now, would you suggest that God cannot have even His desires? Go back and read my #556.
Really? Well, then, if a man 'responds' to a Free Offer of the gospel, is he responding from free will or simply acting out his 'programming' by God who 'elected' him? You see, if the man has no choice in the matter, and according to Attorney John Calvin, he doesn't, what does his response mean? Nothing. He was 'elected'. No choice. He was going to receive the 'Free Offer' and he was going to accept it all along. Meaningless.
Your post #456 was incoherent. Do you just cut and paste this stuff from some Calvinist website? If so, please try some editing. The convoluted mish-mash makes no real sense, except that it just claims the opposite of what the verses quoted say. Justification for Calvinism, of course. Scriptually incorrect, of course.
Clearly, God intended for all men (mankind) to be saved and that was 'predestined' by Him, but no individual was predestined for salvation, except John the Baptist, Moses, Abraham, the apostles, etc.
An omnipotent God chooses to give us free will. We choose evil or good. We choose Christ or the world. God moves in our lives, obviously, the world and all that are in it is His, but out of his divine mercy he gives us the choice of salvation through Christ and when we choose Him, the angels rejoice and our names are written in the Book of Life. Of course, the book of Revelation also warns that anyone who adds or takes away from scripture will have his name removed from the Book of Life, so with all the false prophets over the years, it's safe to assume that some names may have been removed from the Book of Life. But, how could that be? Did God change His mind? If someone were 'elected'., how did he become 'un-elected'? An omnipotent God does control the world but he allows for much free will in many areas of human life. We can accept Christ, turn away from Him some years later and lose our salvation. There is no 'ticket' to heaven, punched by God before time began. We are not 'elected', only called. When called, we are chosen if we accept the gift of life, salvation through Christ.
You see, your doctrine doesn't hold up well.
You take predestination to some absurd extreme that negates human connection with God, making us doomed or 'elected' with no choice. As many have asked; why did Christ die on the cross for me if my 'election' to heaven was already assured? This theory of your beloved Calvin is inconsistent with scripture and not worth the argument.
Please stop leveling false accusations.
Please stop promoting false doctrine.
Except God has indeed shown favoritism hasn't He?
He chose to save Noah and his family out of the flood,He chose Lot out of Sodom..He Chose Abraham to become a great nation,He choose Jacob over Essau,He chose the people that would come from them ..Israel ..over all the other nations..to be the line from which the Savior would be born..He chose David to be the Kingly line over all the other lines..He chose a girl named Mary to mother the savior..
He chose to kill all the life on the earth, He chose to harden the heart of the Pharaoh, He chose to murder the males infants in Egypt, He chose to drown the army of Egypt.
I could go on but I believe you get my point..God is in charge. Romans 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
Those scriptures speak to Gods grace now being available to all nations and all people..no longer restricted to the Jews.
The Bible does teach predestination, but not the kind that you teach. The Bible does not teach that God has decided ahead of time who will be saved and who will be lost. As I've pointed out, we're free, moral agents with the capacity to accept - or reject - God's commandments.
'Predestination' or foreordination is what God did before the world began, as He determined to save man from sin through the sacrifice of His own Son. Those who answer His call through the gospel experience the blessings of that plan now in Christ Jesus. Is that too easy for you?
You are the one that is being smug and sarcastic but I will let it pass in christian fellowship
I am providing a like to another freeper post on predestination that deals with it far better than I could..
Romans 2:11:"For God does not show favoritism".
John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
2 Thess. 13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
John 6 37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
John 17 9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
John 15; 16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
Acts 13 48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
1 Cor.14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Your doctrine that you so smugly gloat about and the scripture you totally twist to suit your false doctrine is misleading the unsaved with a foolish and dangerous notion that if you are predestined to hell, why listen to scripture and if you are predestined to heaven, why care what you do? It totally removes Gods grace from mankind, making us mere pieces on a chessboard which is glaringly at odds with not only the scripture itself, but the love and grace of God that all of scripture shows and you, smug in your little Calvinist cocoon, amen-ing each other and feeling, well, so 'elect', I'm surprised you can even bear to mingle with the rest of the 'unelect'.
The words "free will" do not appear in scripture..yet in the NT various forms of the word elect or election appear 47 times. My friend election does not "eliminate" Gods grace,it focuses on it.....it makes man totally dependant on it. Salvation is all of God's grace. We are all badly flawed sinful creatures we are, as the Old Testament , tells us like filthy rags before a Holy God. The wonder is that He has choosen to save any of us by His grace. I have never been "smug" .I have nothing to be "smug " about . That is your own bias talking . You write "I'msurprised you can even bear to mingle with the rest of the 'unelect'
My first thought was that you doubt your own salvation. but the truth is no one except God knows who is His. I certainly do not know. It is the responsibility of all of us to present the gospel and then to allow the grace of God to make a heart of stone into a heart of flesh..
I've spent far more time on this futile thread than I intended and I don't have the time to engage in the bible study you obviously need but I urge you and your like-minded friends that have contributed to the thread to open your eyes and your bible and see the truth of the scripture you so freely quote while misconstruing the meanings and the intent of God's plan for his creation.
Yes, friend, I'm angry when I see false teachers like the Calvinists on this thread mislead the unsaved while posing as knowledgable and wise teachers. You are no more than blind guides and do much harm and upon reflection, I'm probably more fearful of the spiritual harm you're doing with your false, man-made doctrine that you defend so vehemently than I am angry, although the smugness and typical 'holier-than-thou' attitude demonstrated here is also past my normal tolerance for self-congratulation based on ignorance and foolishness, posing as wisdom.
You and the like-minded folks on the thread have embraced a religious doctrine that is patently false, a doctrine of exclusion, which is opposed to scripture and the clear evidence of God's grace and His plan for all of mankind's salvation through Christ. Yes, despite all the self-righteous, scripture-twisting protestations you've raised, we do have free will to accept or reject salvation through Christ. God's plan is clear, you folks deny it and mangle His Word to fit your man-made doctrine and to be part of the 'elect'. It's sad, frustrating and probably ultimately futile to argue with those who embrace cult-like doctrines. You're uncomfortably close to the Jehovah's Witnesses and their '144,000' nonsense. Not the religious company I would prefer to be in.
I hope you'll read some of the scriptures I've given you here, not subjecting them first to the prism of your false doctrine or to what your religious leaders tell you they mean, but open your heart and mind to God's Word as he intended it to be read. There is always hope.
Jim you need to ask God why you are so angry with the thought that He is sovereign in all things..
Utterly false! If God intended for all men to be saved, then why aren't all men saved? My post #556 clearly shows just how horribly false your position really is.
For you will tell me that this passage [1 Tim. 2:4] does directly instruct us to pray for God to effectually accomplish nothing less than the actual salvific redemption of "All men" without exception, every single individual member of the human race. But, in addition to asserting that God deliberately Wills the Salvation of every man without exception, and that His will is thus billions of times Overthrown, to assert what you do is very nearly to risk the Anathema in pursuit of defeating Calvinism!! For does He not tell us in the Revelation of Christ unto John:
Revelation 22:18-19 I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book; and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book.And what also has He told us in Revelation, than the certainty that NOT "All Men without Exception" shall be saved?
Revelation 13:7-8 It was also given to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them, and authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation was given to him. All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain.
1 Timothy 2:4 ...Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
In my daily reading Bible this is translated as desire. Now, would you suggest that God cannot have even His desires?
Are you suggesting that everything that happens in the universe, including the fall in the Garden of Eden, Lucifer's rebellion, the holocaust, abortion etc. MUST be what God desires..OTHERWISE they could not occur?
Is it your position that God could not give His creations free will if it means they could possibly do anything contrary to His desire?
Of course not.
2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
Your reading of scripture is laughably absurd. The elect are called and they are chosen. They also accept the gift of eternal life, but they/we are not in the drivers seat.
1 Tim. 2:4--does it mean each and every single person without exception... If this is your position, then you are guilty of it. Opps! Go back and read the post again.
Oh no! You repeated my own argument back to me!
I'm speechless.:)
Seriously..the idea that this scripture could mean "each and every single person without exception" has nothing to do with what I was addressing. "Opps! Go back and read the post again."
Would you be suggesting that anything--from the largest events in history down to the smallest event--is outside the will of God?
BTW, you are misusing the word desire; horribly.
No, then, I was not exaggerating Jim's position. Now, answer my question. Does the all in 1 Tim. 2:4 mean each and every single person without exception?
He chose to save Noah and his family out of the flood...
God also had Noah preach repentance and warn people before hand......
Is it your belief that this was all done in pretense and none of these people could really be saved because God already decided He was going to drown them all...and it wouldn't make any difference.
If so, then it makes God and Noah look like fakes...pretending to give people the opportunity to be saved when in fact there was no real hope for them.
He chose Lot out of Sodom....
He also gave some of Lot's relatives the opportunity to escape out of Sodom also...but they didn't...so the above applies here as well.
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