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Luther himself said that reformation never ends.

In this day of liberal sceptic attacks and evangelical date setters, we had better search for what our "signs" are really pointing to.
1 posted on 01/14/2002 11:35:19 AM PST by NATE4"ONE NATION" (nate@nate4onenation.com)
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To: ccwoody;rnmomof7;vmatt
The first post did not take completely.
2 posted on 01/14/2002 11:36:37 AM PST by NATE4"ONE NATION"
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To: NATE4"ONE NATION"
I am presently reading R.C. Sproul's book (the "top priority - read first" listing in the bibliography). Not sure whether I am ready to abandon my "historical premillenial" stance for preterism, yet.
3 posted on 01/14/2002 11:43:16 AM PST by Jerry_M
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To: NATE4"ONE NATION"
"... I am bound by the Scriptures ..."

Then why did he edit some and discard others? Just one of many contradictions in Luther's life.

9 posted on 01/14/2002 12:07:15 PM PST by SMEDLEYBUTLER
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To: NATE4"ONE NATION"
In the interest in continuing to be open minded, let me ask you this:

Are the events of I Thessalonians 4:13-18 (described by dispensationalists as the "rapture", but self-described by the text as the "coming of the Lord".) seen by preterists as future or already fulfilled?

This is something that I have not yet to see explained in Sproul's book. I think that I could be in agreement with a "partial fulfillment preterism" if this event is seen as being yet to occur. If preterists see it as already fulfilled in the first century, exactly what event fulfilled it?

13 posted on 01/14/2002 12:23:38 PM PST by Jerry_M
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To: NATE4"ONE NATION"
Funny - I had no idea what the 'theses' were talking about until I read the replies to the original post. Do you suppose the educated, literate person of Luther's day had the same trouble with his theses?
17 posted on 01/14/2002 12:36:21 PM PST by freedomcrusader
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To: NATE4"ONE NATION"
Nate, I'd hate to be on a "Diet of Worms."
19 posted on 01/14/2002 12:38:45 PM PST by Delta-Boudreaux
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To: NATE4"ONE NATION"
Everything every New Testament writer expected to happen, happened exactly as and when they expected it would-within their lifetime-as they were guided into all truth and told the things that were to come by the Holy Spirit (Jn. 16:13).

Except, of course, the restoration of the kingdom to Israel (Acts 1:6).

20 posted on 01/14/2002 12:40:57 PM PST by good1
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To: NATE4"ONE NATION"
At least 5, 7 and 8 seem to be utter bunkum.

The rest... what's the point?

Try instead What Is Biblical Christianity? There are some Biblically-grounded theses with clear and crucial application.

Dan
Biblical Christianity message board

22 posted on 01/14/2002 12:49:01 PM PST by BibChr
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To: NATE4"ONE NATION"
Well I suppose if everything Jesus predicted got completed during the life of comemporaries, then his final doings were to create the Church with Peter as the head to keep everything going 'and the gates of hell will not prevail against it'.
25 posted on 01/14/2002 12:56:34 PM PST by ex-snook
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To: NATE4"ONE NATION"
Luther himself said that reformation never ends.

Indeed. Interesting that one group of his philosophical heirs, the Communists, spoke in a manner similar to their father: "the revolution never ends." Peas in a pod.

59 posted on 01/14/2002 2:17:02 PM PST by Squire
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To: NATE4"ONE NATION"
Bump for a mark.

This may get interesting, if we can do a discussion of ecclesiology and not be overwhelmed by RC bashing posts.

My point is always that the Roman Catholics were the first Protestants. It is understandable thet the monk Luther rebelled against the mess of the western and papal church.

Go East, young man, Go East.

67 posted on 01/14/2002 2:27:47 PM PST by don-o
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To: NATE4"ONE NATION"
bump
69 posted on 01/14/2002 2:28:23 PM PST by Centurion2000
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To: NATE4"ONE NATION"
9.5. We have been guilty of proclaiming a half-truth-a partially delivered faith to the world and to fellow Christians. We must repent and earnestly "contend for the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints" (Jude 3)?

Honest question is "Why and how did you find yourself in this sad situation"

If, as you admit, you have lost your way, it seems that you might try to remember where you lost the way.

74 posted on 01/14/2002 2:37:11 PM PST by don-o
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To: NATE4"ONE NATION"
5. Partial fulfillment is not satisfactory. 3 out of 5, 7 out of 10, etc., won't work. Partial does not pass the test of a true prophet (Deut. 18:18-22). Again, Jesus time-restricted all of his end-time predictions to occur within the 1st-century time frame.

Actually, there's a disconnect between what the author says in point 5 and how the old testament community viewed this 100% accuracy rule. In Micah 5:2, Micah prophesies that Bethlehem would have a ruler come out of it. This clearly was seen by the scholars in King Herod's day as having been a futuristic prophecy; one that had not yet been fulfilled.

In Micah's day, they realized that no ruler had come forth from Bethlehem to fulfill Micah's prophecy. Wonder why they didn't stone Micah for being a false prophet? Instead, rather than be even slightly upset with him, they included him in the list of biblical books.

They must have had some guideline they used to determine when a prophet was speaking about something that had yet to take place in the far distant future.

In the Olivet discourse, it's obvious that Jesus is in many portions talking about the far distant future. Luke reports that Jesus said, "Jerusalem will be trodden under foot of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles come to an end." Then he talks of signs in the heavens, etc.

It's not possible for a truly honest person to say that that verse simply cannot be viewed futuristically. An honest person will allow that these are future things.

(Incidentally, it's in the context of this Jerusalem/Gentiles statement that the "this generation shall not pass away" statement is properly placed.

It's easy for an honest person to allow that that statement refers to the future generation that sees these things coming to pass. It's also easy for an honest person to relate the Greek "gens" which means either "generation" or "racial group" to be speaking of the Jewish race; especially given that the entire context is of their near destruction by the Gentiles.

107 posted on 01/14/2002 5:24:33 PM PST by xzins
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To: NATE4"ONE NATION"
Invite every one of the gentleman on your list to a venue and I'll bring along a leper who wants to be cured,there we can test 'say to this mountain move and it will move' or 'even greater things than these shall you do' in fact fill the whole stadium with the learned men of every religion in the world and your leper will still be a leper,but if hes lucky someday somewhere he may well meet someone who does cure him ,someone who God has tested and tried and delegated the requisite authority to,the reason this is so, is it is as it always was true miracle workers are bad for business and not to keen to reveal themselves because if theres one thing the church does well is isolate,ruin the reputation of or even kill anyone with real authority.
115 posted on 01/14/2002 10:40:29 PM PST by Governor StrangeReno
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To: NATE4"ONE NATION"
Luther himself said that reformation never ends.

Well, then it must be true. After all, Luther was appointed by, by, by,...Well, who did appoint Luther the author of God's truth?

123 posted on 01/14/2002 11:30:11 PM PST by Rum Tum Tugger
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To: ag2000jon
bump
130 posted on 01/15/2002 5:43:35 AM PST by ag2000jon
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To: NATE4"ONE NATION"
While dispensationalist eschatology is certainly novel (not to be confused with historic premillenialism), hyper-preterism is heretical; it is not an eschatology within the pale of historic Christian faith, Reformed or otherwise. Indeed, dispensationalism, with all of its manifest errors, does not commit the serious errors of hyper ("full") preterism.

There is a name for this heresy--Hymenaeanism.

It is not "conservative" as it attempts to overthrow the historic view of the Christian faith that, while much, perhaps most, of what Jesus foretold was indeed intended for His immediate audience, not *all* things were fulfilled in His time nor were they meant to be (i.e., the bodily Resurrection of the just and unjust; the final judgement; the bodily return of Jesus Christ at the close of history, etc.).

"Full" (or "hyper") preterism denies the following: the future physical Advent of Christ; the future final judgment; and the future physical, bodily resurrection of the just and unjust.

This places it outside of Christian orthodoxy and within the pale of heresy--it is sub-christian belief.

As Andrew Sandlin observed, while theological progress and reformation is good, not all doctrinal "development" is progress, "This theological progress and creativity must occur within the strictures of orthodox Christianity, however, or it subverts the Faith."

http://www.chalcedon.edu/articles/article_hy_Hymenaen.html

Advocating beliefs that are against the core doctrines of the historic Christian faith is not "Reformation," and, indeed, goes against everything the great Reformers stood for valiantly.

Regarding the "recommended" works, of the writers I am familiar with, *none* of them advocate the heretical Hymenaeanism. Ken Gentry has publically spoken against it.

The post in question cites Kenneth Gentry in support of hyper or full preterism, which is simply not reflective of the facts. Indeed, Gentry has written, "No Creed allows any second Advent in A.D. 70." He adds, "No Creed allows any other type of resurrection than a bodily one. Historic creeds speak of the universal, personal judgement of all men, not a representative judgement in A.D. 70. It would be most remarkable if the entire church that came through A.D 70 missed the proper understanding of the eschaton and did not realize its members had been resurrected!" (See Kenneth Gentry, "A Brief Theological Analysis of Hyper-Preterism," *Chalcedon Report* no. 384 [July 1997]: p. 23).

In short, Gentry (rightly) considers it outside of the historic Christian faith.

R.C. Sproul in his excellent work, The Last Days According to Jesus, cites, "'We need to state it clearly for the record that R.C. Sproul, Sr. is not a full preterist, but he does see a lot of merit in the partial preterist approach similar to Ken Gentry.' It is comforting to be quoted accurately." (See R.C. Sproul, The Last Days According to Jesus Baker Books, 1998, p. 158, quoting and responding to Edward E. Stevens, in Stevens' Response to Gentry Bradford, PA: Kingdom, 1997).

The unqualified citing of DeMar, Gentry, Sproul, et.. al., as supportive of heretical hyper, or full, preterism is a dishonest use of sources, to say the least.

While these men certainly eschew the novel view of dispensationalism and do hold to a historic post-millenial, partial-preterist view and historic orthodoxy, they do not in any sense advocate the "full" preterism and heresy of the post in question. They hold to Biblical Reformation--not heresy.

134 posted on 01/15/2002 8:22:55 AM PST by EthanNorth
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To: NATE4"ONE NATION"
Ya'll keep on protesting.
235 posted on 01/17/2002 2:34:46 PM PST by peabers
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To: NATE4"ONE NATION"
Books for the Next Reformation

Uhmm.. I think you forgot the Bible in that list of books that you made!
267 posted on 01/17/2002 6:46:58 PM PST by markn
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