Posted on 01/14/2002 11:35:19 AM PST by NATE4"ONE NATION"
9.5 Theses for the Next Reformation
Modern-day Reformers Post Document on 'Church Door'
We the undersigned, out of love for the truth and a desire to see all Christians honor and acknowledge all that God has revealed in his Word, submit these 9.5 Theses for your prayerful evaluation and participation with us in calling for further reform. May these theses be the spark that ignites the next Reformation of Christianity.
1. Everything Jesus said would happen, happened exactly as and when He said it would-within the lifetime of his contemporaries.
2. Everything every New Testament writer expected to happen, happened exactly as and when they expected it would-within their lifetime-as they were guided into all truth and told the things that were to come by the Holy Spirit (Jn. 16:13).
3. Scholars across a broad spectrum are in general agreement that this is exactly how every NT writer and the early Church understood Jesus' words. If they were wrong on something this important, how can we trust them to have conveyed other aspects of the faith accurately, such as the requirements for salvation?
4. No inspired NT writer, writing twenty or more years later, ever corrected their Holy-Spirit-guided understanding and fulfillment expectations (Jn. 16:13). Neither should we. Instead, they intensified their language as the "appointed time of the end" (Dan. 12:4; Hab. 2:3) drew near-from Jesus' "this generation" (Mat. 24:34), to Peter's "the end of all things is at hand" and "for it is time for judgment to begin" (1 Pet. 4:7, 17), and John's "this is the last hour . . . . it is the last hour" (1 Jn. 2:18).
5. Partial fulfillment is not satisfactory. 3 out of 5, 7 out of 10, etc., won't work. Partial does not pass the test of a true prophet (Deut. 18:18-22). Again, Jesus time-restricted all of his end-time predictions to occur within the 1st-century time frame.
6. God is faithful (2 Pet. 3:9) and "not a man that he should lie" (Num. 23:19). Faithfulness means not only doing what was promised, but also doing it when it was promised.
7. 1st-century, fulfillment expectations were the correct ones and everything happened, right on time-no gaps, no gimmicks, no interruptions, no postponements, no delays, no exegetical gymnastics, and no changing the meaning of commonly used and normally understood words. Such manipulative devices have only given liberals and skeptics a foothold to discredit Christ's Deity and the inerrancy of Scripture.
8. What needs adjusting is our understanding of both the time and nature of fulfillment, and not manipulation of the time factor to conform to our popular, futuristic, and delay expectations.
9. The kingdom of God was the central teaching of our Lord Jesus Christ, is a present but greatly under-realized reality, and must again become the central teaching of his Church.
9.5. We have been guilty of proclaiming a half-truth-a partially delivered faith to the world and to fellow Christians. We must repent and earnestly "contend for the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints" (Jude 3). If Christianity has been as effective as it has by proclaiming that Jesus Christ, the Messiah, came, died for our sins, bodily arose from the dead, and ascended to Heaven "at just the right time" (Rom. 5:6; Dan. 9:24-27), how much more effective might it be if we started preaching, teaching, and practicing the whole truth-i.e., a faith in which everything else also happened "at just the right time," exactly as and when Jesus said it would and every NT writer expected (Jn. 16:13). Dare we continue to settle for less?
Surely today, the words of Martin Luther, as he stood in defense before the Diet of Worms in 1521, are still applicable and compelling for the "always reforming" Church:
"Unless I am convinced by the testimony of the Scriptures or by clear reason (for I do not trust either in the pope or in councils alone, since it is well known that they have often erred and contradicted themselves), I am bound by the Scriptures . . . and my conscience is captive to the Word of God . . . . I cannot do otherwise. "
Original Signatories
John Noe, President Prophecy Reformation Institute Indianapolis, Indiana Rick Chromey, Professor of Christian Education Saint Louis Christian College Florissant, Missouri
Edward E. Stevens, President International Preterist Association Bradford, Pennsylvania
Danny Griffin, President Carolina Christian Ministries Charlotte, North Carolina
John Anderson, President Lighthouse World Ministries Sparta, North Carolina
Walter C. Hibbard, Former Founder & Chairman Great Christian Books, Inc. Newark, Delaware
Mike Lightfoot, Pastor Father's House Fellowship Clarkston, Washington
Terry Siverd, Minister Cortland Church of Christ Cortland, Ohio
Kenneth J. Davies, President Grace Ministries Lemon Grove, California
Joseph Lewis, Pastor Fulfilled Bible Fellowship Delair, New Jersey
Jerry Wayne Bernard, Vice President Scripture Research, Inc. Riverside, California
Arthur J. Melanson, President Joy of the Lord Ministry Audubon, New Jersey
Jerry Hester, Pastor Dominion Community Church Greer, South Carolina
Terry M. Hall, Minister Miami Valley Church Beavercreek, Ohio
Gene Fadeley, President Anchor Publishing Charlotte, North Carolina
Rod Moyses, Manager M2ktalk.Com, (internet-satellite radio networks) Fresno, California
Stan Newton, Pastor Missionary to Bulgaria Seattle, Washington
Timothy R. King, Pastor Central Baptist Church Grand Junction, Colorado
Walter Koch, Pastor Emanuel Centro Christiano El Monte, California
Jack C. Scott, Jr., Minister Glacier View Church Kalispell, Montana
A. Wilson Phillips, Pastor Abundant Life Covenant Church Springfield, Missouri
Thomas A. Price, Jr., Pastor Sherman Community Church Sherman, New York
Don K. Preston, Minister Ardmore Church of Christ Ardmore, Oklahoma
David Curtis, Pastor Berean Bible Church Cheasapeake, Virginia
Jessie E. Mills, Jr., Minister Central Church of Christ Bonifay, Florida
Bud Fleisher, Host/Producer "Let's Talk Religion" (radio program) Clearwater, Florida
Ron Smith, President Friendship In Action (mission work in Mexico) Mission,
Texas Bill Clark Brumbaugh, Host Proactive News (nat'l syndicated radio program) Bozeman, Montana
James R. Hopkins, Minister Daleville Church of Christ Daleville, Alabama
William Bell, Minister Raines Road Church of Christ Memphis, Tennessee
Published by the Prophecy Reformation Institute: a conservative, evangelical ministry dedicated to continuing the Reformation into the field of eschatology-end-time Bible prophecy, and the International Preterist Association.
Books for the Next Reformation
· Chilton, David. "The Days of Vengeance." Ft. Worth, TX.: Dominion Press, 1987.
· DeMar, Gary, "Last Days Madness: Obsession of the Modern Church." Atlanta, GA.: American Vision, 3rd ed., 1997.
· *________. "End Times Fiction: A Biblical Consideration of the Left Behind Theology." Nashville: Thomas Nelson, 2001.
· Gentry, Jr., Kenneth L. "Before Jerusalem Fell." Atlanta, GA.: American Vision, revised ed., 1998.
· *Noe, John. "Beyond the End Times: The Rest of . . . The Greatest Story Ever Told. "Bradford, PA.: IPA, 1999.
· *________. "Dead In Their Tracks: Stopping the Liberal/Skeptic Attack on the Bible." Bradford, PA.: IPA, 2001.
· ________. "Shattering the ‘Left Behind’ Delusion." Bradford, PA.: IPA, 2000.
· ________. "The Israel Illusion: 13 Popular Misconceptions about This Modern-day Nation and Its Role in Bible Prophecy. "Fishers, IN.: PRI, 2000.
· ________. Top Ten Misconceptions about Jesus’ Second Coming and the End Times. Fishers, IN.: PRI, 1998.
· Otto, Randell E. "Case Dismissed: Rebutting Common Charges Against Preterism." Bradford, PA.: IPA, 2000.
· Russell, J. Stuart. "The Parousia." Bradford, Pennsylvania: IPA, 2002. Reprint of the second edition originally published by T. Fisher Unwin, in London, England in 1887.
· *Sproul, R.C. "The Last Days According to Jesus. "Grand Rapids: Baker Books, 1998.
· Stevens, Edward E. "Questions About The Afterlife. "Bradford, PA.: IPA, 1999.
· ________. "What Happened In A.D. 70?" Bradford, PA.: IPA, 6th ed., 2001.
· Terry, Milton S. "Biblical Hermeneutics. "Eugene, OR.: Wipf and Stock Publishers, 1890, 1999.
* (top priority—read first)
FOR MORE INFORMATION, CONTACT: John Noe Prophecy Reformation Institute 9715 Kincaid Drive Suite 1100 Fishers, IN 46038
E-mail: jnoe@prophecyrefi.org Ph.# 317-841-7777, Ext. 350 Fax# 317-578-2110
Edward E. Stevens International Preterist Association 122 Seaward Ave. Bradford, PA 16701
E-mail: Preterist1@aol.com Ph.# 1-814-368-6578 Fax# 1-814-368-6030
Be sure to visit our websites: www.prophecyrefi.org. Website: www.preterist.org.
_ Copyright 2001 by John Noe
All rights reserved. This material may be reproduced or transmitted by any means in any form, electronic or mechanical, including photocopy, recording, or any information storage and retrieval system, without prior written permission, but only in its entirety-i.e., both pages.
Every single example of the Gift of Tongues in the New Testament was the gifting of a "tongue" -- the miraculous and instantaneous ability to preach and/or confirm the Gospel in a spoken common language which was not formerly known to the Preacher.
In NO INSTANCE WHATSOEVER is the Gift of Tongues identified with an epileptic fit of drooling gibberish. I'm sorry if that language seems "harsh", but them are the facts.
Now, Woody knows that I do not consider myself a strict "Cessationist"; I do not take it as a "given" that God has completely "turned off the spigot" of the miraculous Spiritual Gifts at the close of Revelation.
I believe that if God for Woody to preach and/or confirm the Gospel to a group of Hindi-speaking Indians, and Woody doesn't speak Hindi, God could grant Woody the Tongue of Hindi right now if it served His purposes to do so; and I believe that it pleased God to grant unto the great Reformer John Knox, founder of the Presbyterian Church of Scotland, certain prophetic visions to aid and comfort the advance of the Reformation.
So I'm no strict Cessationist.
But I *DO* insist that all things be judged by the Word of Scripture.
Show me a Charismatic Church where the Gospel is being preached and/or confirmed unto heathens or new believers by preachers speaking in spoken common languages which they formerly did not know, and I will show you a Church which has a powerful argument against the Cessationists -- for there we will see a REAL BIBLICAL EXAMPLE of the New Testament Gift of "Tongues" in operation.
Show me a Church in which the parishioners are babbling gibberish and calling it "prayer language", on the other hand, and I'll show you a self-deceiving "church" which is profaning the real gift of Tongues by substituting the fraud of glossalia for the True Gift.
Mea Culpa, sentence fragment as originally written.
There is no "tongues" which is a known language, tongues is a heavenly language. I spoke in tongues when I received the gift of the Holy Ghost alone in an apartment. I knew nothing about tongues and was not seeking them, I was asking God for the gift of the Holy Ghost. I was Catholic and had a Catholic and KJV bible open and was studying Paul's words at the time. I can still remeber (1976) my exact prayer to God, with my hands lifted up toward heaven, "Lord, I am not leaving this apartment until I receive this gift". The most indescribable power came over me and my vocal faculties were under the control of something other than myself. The speaking was nothing compared to the power sweeping over me. For about a half an hour I could not speak English, every time I tried to speak it came out in another language not of earthly origin of this I am sure. Later, I went to the priest and had a long discussion and wanted to know why they never told me I could receive this gift. That was the end of my Catholic experience and the beginning of my new creature. I had no idea at that time that many would not believe me. I can hardly stand the thought of people out there who have built up a wall so that they cheat themselves out of a heavenly gift that someone as lowly, sinful and utterly unworthy as I could be so blessed. All I can say is the only thing between this gift of God and you is yourself.
Well, I have never witnessed the laying on of hands and receiving the Holy Spirit being evidenced by tongues. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but please tell me you are not insisting that it must happen or someone has not received the Holy Spirit.
You are a liar, and the truth is not in you.
And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven. Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language. And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans? And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born? (ACTS 2:1-8)
I spoke in tongues when I received the gift of the Holy Ghost alone in an apartment.
You were seized by a neuro-epileptic fit of glossalic gibberish, and convinced yourself you were speaking in "tongues".
Only what YOU mean by "tongues", and what the BIBLE means by "tongues", are not the same thing at all.
I knew nothing about tongues and was not seeking them, I was asking God for the gift of the Holy Ghost. I was Catholic and had a Catholic and KJV bible open and was studying Paul's words at the time. I can still remeber (1976) my exact prayer to God, with my hands lifted up toward heaven, "Lord, I am not leaving this apartment until I receive this gift".
Thou Shalt Not Tempt The Lord Thy God.
Those who demand that God give them what they want, when they want it, on their terms and according to their ideas, are liable to have the Devil answer their prayers.
The Power to speak in Foreign Tongues, of which you never knew a word, is a real miracle... and Satan, for all his majesty, is a being of limited Power. There is no record of him having the ability to grant his subjects Power over foreign Tongues.
Inducing a fit of epileptic gibberish, on the other hand, is a piece of cake for the old Snake. A proverbial snap-o-the-fingers.
All you have to do, is ask.....
Next thing you know, you'll be babbling away with drool running down your chin, and haughtily guilt-tripping your brethren (like Woody) for not speaking in "tongues" (i.e., they don't gibber as good as you so).
Gift of the Spirit, my right eyeball. A Deception for the purpose of instilling Pride and creating Division, that's what I call gibbering glossalia.
I have.
I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but please tell me you are not insisting that it must happen or someone has not received the Holy Spirit.
I am convinced that it does. I do believe that the Holy Ghost works with many people in many ways but the indwelling gift of the Holy Ghost will be accompanied by tongues. Also, consider that it was so common that even the authentic gift itself was being misused. Notice below that had tongues not accompanied the gift, the Jews would not have believed the gift was being poured out on gentiles.
Acts 10:44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
Acts 2:1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.
6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.
7 And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?
8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?
Of course. In your admonishment I have noticed that you really didn't say anything about whether you find that the Bible says that a personal prayer language is not Biblical.
BTW, I agree that, how did you put it..., "an epileptic fit of drooling gibberish" is rather stupid and makes one look like a fool to those who watch.
I find his strict cessationism arguments unconvincing, but I think his other stuff on the topic is pretty good. MacArthur distinguishes between the Pentecost experience of tongues and the problems in Corinth. He argues right forcefully that Paul never endorsed a private prayer language.
(This is actually less sticky than the tongues issue, by the way!)
1 Corinthians 14:39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.
I am of the opinion that the mirical on Pentacost was not in the tounges of the apostles..but in the ears of the hearers
Acts 2:6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.
In much the same way we need to HEAR the gospel..the miracle is not in the Preacher..it is in the ears God gives us to hear!
I think you are being hyper-literal when you key on the fact that the word is "heard." (I understand the argument quite easily, of course. In fact, it seems rather banal to me, vmatt.)
The statement you quoted also fits the scenario OrthodoxPresbyterian presented--i.e., the participants at Pentecost spoke in tongues which were unknown to the speakers but known to the hearers.
Reinforcing this obvious sense is Acts 2:4. This verse is presented before the foreigners are mentioned, so when it says that the Lord's disciples spoke with other tongues, these tongues were manifestly foreign to these disciples. I would go on to argue that the very fact that these disciples were understood, in turn, by the foreigners gathered there means that the disciples were speaking in known languages which happened to be unknown to the disciples who were speaking.
Thus, Acts 2 as a whole doesn't clearly fit your scenario, but it certainly does seem to fit the one OrthodoxPresbyterian described. You are overlooking this because you are presupposing that the gibberish glossalalia is legitimate. I believe you need to re-think a lot of things.
Heck, vmatt, a lot of people who have glossalalia experiences are still lost as a goose. (Perhaps you have even notice this.)
Another reason why I believe that OrthodoxPresbyterian's overall explanation of tongues is correct has to do with the Biblical theology of the situation. Pentecost involved God building a spiritual edifice metaphorically reaching up to the heavens. In this respect, it is like the tower of Babel, but actually amounts to a reversal of Babel. God intended for this particular "global building project" to succeed!
That being the case, we can now understand the babble which the Corinthians practiced in their staggering spiritual declension. It was actually a carnal reversion (again!)to Babel's confusion. It was going in the wrong direction, It was not edifying to the Body of Christ.
(I have never seen this Biblical-theological argument from the story of Babel in the commentaries, but it seems obvious to me that this is what is going on in the story of Pentecost. Thus, Corinth was way out of line.)
The second verse you gave also fits my interpretation, since I am not a strict cessationist. See OP's earlier post.
Since these verses do not militate against my position at all, that leaves us with my most recent post to you. Please think about it. And I do recommend MacArthur's discussion of the difference between Pentecost and Corinth. I just don't buy his arguments for strict cessationism.
I am of the opinion that the mirical on Pentacost was not in the tounges of the apostles..but in the ears of the hearers Acts 2:6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language. In much the same way we need to HEAR the gospel..the miracle is not in the Preacher..it is in the ears God gives us to hear! ~~ RnMomof7
What sayeth the Scriptures?
Acts 2: 9-11 (the verses which vmatt left out of his foregoing citations):
Unless we choose to wrest our own meanings out of the plain words of Scripture, we must admit the accurate historicity of Luke's account:
The Apostles spoke in the native tongues of their listeners. That is why the sojourners heard the Apsotles in their own tongues; the Apostles were speaking to them in their own tongues.
Rustic Galilean fisherman, suddenly granted the Power to preach the Gospel in Partho-Medean, and Chaldean, and Greek, and Arabic... Power over Foreign Tongues.
However, even if we should prefer RnMomof7's interpretation of the passage (and respectfully, RN, I do not -- because it isn't what Luke says), we are still faced with the obvious fact that the normative Biblical example of the Gift of Tongues is the power to communicate the Gospel in a foreign tongue. Whether the miracle of Tongues is located in the tongue of the Apostle or the ear of the listener, it remains a Power over Foreign Tongues.
God was temporarily suspending the Division of Babel to advance the Gospel...
Not sanctifying a Gospel of Gibberish.
Of course. In your admonishment I have noticed that you really didn't say anything about whether you find that the Bible says that a personal prayer language is not Biblical.
I was not primarily admonishing you, Woody, but rather admonishing Mr. "You-must-GibberGibberGibber-to-know-you-have-the-Holy-Spirit" vmatt.
As to "private prayer languages", I don't find any Biblical example of any such thing among the New Testament Church -- and the Bible is our Sole Rule of faith and conduct. I certainly don't find such a "gift" associated anywhere in the Bible with the Apostolic Power over Foreign Tongues.
BTW, I agree that, how did you put it..., "an epileptic fit of drooling gibberish" is rather stupid and makes one look like a fool to those who watch.
Well, then, you really AREN'T much of a Charismatic, by modern standards, are you Woody? ;-)
I submit that you aren't a "charismatic" at all, but simply a pneumatological Continuationist -- one who says to the Cessationists, "The Spirit still blows, like the wind, where He wills; our young men still see illuminating visions, and our old men still dream prophetic dreams".
That's all to the good by me. I'm no Charismatic, but I consider myself to be at least mildly Continuationist.
And I would submit to you further that the "Charismatics" damage the Continuationist position -- by scratching "itching ears" with their Gospel of Gibber, and exalting a fraudulent Glossalia as though it were the true, Biblical gift of Tongues, the charismatics make old-school Continuationists look like fools in front of their strict-Cessationist critics.
And if we suppose for a moment that the strict-Cessationists are wrong, then I charge "charismaticism" with being a Satanic deception which has utterly sidetracked and foiled the Spirit-Continuationist's response to the errant strict-Cessationists.
OK, 120 Galilaeans suddenly start acting up a scene talking about some ghost or something with their hair on fire, some think they're drunk. This was spread eveywhere word of mouth and here comes all kinds of people talking about hearing them in their own language. Wait, what's that? Why is that a big deal you say? This place is full of out of towners and it's not that unusual to be multi-lingual. Wait...we're hearing and understanding what they are saying even though we know the person standing next to us and over there is of a language that neither of us speak. Now that's news! Three thousand people were converted that day and it wasn't because the 120 knew a few different languages.
Cool, me too!! (I composed my #216 before reading your #214-215)
It seems to me from 1 cor 14 that Paul is speaking out against praying in tongues in public, not that praying in tongues is wrong. Thoughts?
NOT UNUSUAL?!?!Good grief.
And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans? And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born? Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia, Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes, Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.
1. Parthian
2. Medean
3. Elamite
4. Mesopotamian
5. Cappadocian
6. Judean Hebrew
7. Pontian
8. Asian
9. Phrygian
10. Pamphylian
11. Egyptian
12. Libyan
13. Cyrenian
14. Latin
15. Cretan
16. Arabic
Luke identifies sixteen different languages or distinct local dialects over which the Apostles gained Power that day, and that's just the listing which he cared to mention.
Rustic aramaic-speaking Galilean fishermen do not speak 16 different languages. It would not only be unusual, it would be unheard-of.
It would be a Miracle.
It would be the gift of Power over Foreign Tongues.
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