Is always "doing the right thing" possible? How does it hurt to imagine no one has achieved it?

If you know what tomorrow will bring then you "can do the right thing". Since I have never been a good forecaster of the future I will continue, I am sure to stumble and fall (Ouch) in the future.

Ooops! One too many "the"s in my previous reply.

It is possible to do what one believes is the right thing, based on the information available at the time. It is also possible, with this wonderful gift that has been given to us called "hindsight," to look back and say, "I should have done x."

This is at the very core of the definition of what makes us human, and inevitably mortal. The other animals do not have this capacity.

By reflecting on what we did in any given set of circumstances and asking ourselves what we will do differently in the future, we achieve wisdom - the improvement of our moral code - and become better humans. We become closer to God.

In short, the answer to your question, "Is always 'doing the right thing' possible," the answer is no. We may think we know what the right thing is at the time, but in retrospect, it turns out to be wrong. When we come to that realization, adjust our philosophy accordingly, then do the "right" thing the next time, we have done the "right" thing. It's called Live and Learn.

I took that to mean that you believe a person can get to the state of "always doing the right thing" based on the moral code that you've proposed above.

Yes. To expand on this just a bit more- "right" in this sense is interchangable with "moral" or "morally right".

For instance, a doctor: Medicine is not an exact science. But if a person studied this field diligently, was certified as physician and he practices to the best of his ability using the science as it is known to the fullest degree possible to him at the time- he is being moral in his profession. He may not be able to cure your ailment and you may even die as a result of some "truth" that medical science has not yet revealed, but if that physician has applied his craft to the utmost of his knowledge, then I would say that he was moral or right. Obviously, if you die or were otherwise not cured, the "right answer" to the problem was not found. But clearly it would be unreasonable for anyone to expect one to employ a knowledge that is not known or may not become known for many years or centuries- if ever.

On the other hand, if he neglected to employ his skills to the best reasonable level possible and you were maimed or died as a result then he was wrong.

This brings back the question, "Is there an absolute morality or right?" It must depend on the context in which the word is used. If it is absolute, as in a "law of nature" absolute, then it would exist with or without man (and here I use "man" to cover any and all conscious intelligent beings). Gravity is an absolute and exists whether we are here or not. If a tree falls in the woods and no one is there, it does cause the vibrations we perceive as sound- etc. But in this sense, the failure of a lion to capture his prey or his prey to get away from the lion could be viewed as incorrect (if the object is survival) and hence immoral.

But I don't see how one could apply such a law of morality to a non conscious being that has no choice in its actions. Morality, as I see it, naturally implies cognition and volition. And relating to my previous post it also implies that a man can be moral in his actions without choosing the correct solution every time as in the example of the physician.

The second is "how does it hurt to imagine no one has achieved it?"

The way I see it, even if it can be shown that no one has ever achieved it, that should not dissuade me from trying to live my life in a moral way. Again, taking the ex. of the physician, even if I know every other doctor is incompetent from time to time, in order to have integrity and to be able to live in the dignity that comes from being true to one's values, I must strive to be moral in my profession all the time. Because when it comes down to it, it is about my life, my survival. If I were an antelope I should not allow the success of the lion in catching my brother hinder me from running as fast as I can the next time the lion comes. Fleetness is the antelope's survival tool, reason is the tool of man.

I do not think it hurts to imagine that no one has ever achieved morality- as an excercise. After all, imagination is an integral part of man's reasoning ability. Imagining this situation would be constructive on my part. It would lead me to ask "why has no one achieved this?" and then go on to seek or formulate my own answers and perhap apply these answers to my everyday life if I saw fit.

What I do think hurts is when a person puts themselves in the postition of student or acolyte in the quest for truth and the teacher uses the constant example of "no one has ever achieved morality" to wear down the student's own will to achieve it. The student-teacher relationship is a "good faith" arrangement similar to doctor- patient. The teacher that twists abstract examples in order to corrupt is incompetent and hence immoral.

Also, if your answer to the first is "yes, it can be achieved through reason," then "how does it help to imagine that this is achievable?"

Well, just the simple knowledge that it can be done, that it is not all pointless, would be a valuable thing in and of itself, sustenance for the trying moments in life. I reflect on 9/11 and those victims that flung themselves to their deaths rather than wait for the inevitable. They had lost hope that they would survive and foresaw no possible reason to continue to suffer. I think many would draw the same conclusion from normal life if they truly believed that it were not possible to achieve happiness and virtue through leading a moral life.

Thanks, you're making me blush. I just hate it that I'm so long winded.

No one can always 'do the right thing 'all the time, only if we lived our lives by hindsight. To 'imagine no one has achieved it' is only being realistic but , here is the BUT........LOL.......survivors and achievers and those that never give up will never stop trying and always have a positive attitude about there is always hope and a dream can always become a reality.
Sometimes doing the right thing is an uphill battle but one worth the effort always.

Thanks for the comments. I never know who I'm dealing with here, so sometimes I try to answer in ways that will cause a person who may not understand Christianity, to see things in ways they might not have before. I didn't mean to insert an insult so much as to explain why questions that I cannot answer do not bother me all that much.

As for me being dedicated to the Lord, I'd say that I've been closer to Peter's cock crowing days than John the Baptist's day of selfless sacrifice.

In light of world events I think it's fast coming time when all of us are going to have to have taken our final stand. To that end I'm trying to come to terms with Paul's description of his struggles to live the Christian life.

Paul was a runner. He said something to the effect that salvation is little like long disance running. If you run like a sprinter, you can't maintain over the long haul. But if you do your best to be a little better each day, pacing yourself and hanging in there, you'll have the strength to see it through.

Take care.

"To think that NO ONE had ever......sounded depressing"

Why? No one will ever run the mile in 5 seconds, but breaking the record has inspired a lot of athletes. The challenge of being alive and being fully human is to see how well we can do with the gifts God has given each of us as individuals. If we could attain perfection, we would have no need of God.

In fact, I am of the-shedding-this-mortal-coil school of thought: I think when we depart this life, we will lose the shackles of what it means to be human. THEN we will know perfection, and be one with it.