"I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races - Lincoln, 8/17/1858.
Well, that statement is not well supported in the record. - Walt
"that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of making voters or jurors of Negroes" - Lincoln, 8/17/1858.
Well, that statement is not well supported in the record. - Walt
"nor of qualifying them to hold office" - Lincoln, 8/17/1858. Well, that statement is not well supported in the record. - Walt
"nor to intermarry with white people;" - Lincoln, 8/17/1858.
Well, that statement is not well supported in the record. - Walt
"and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality." - Lincoln, 8/17/1858.
Well, that statement is not well supported in the record. - Walt
"And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race." - Lincoln, 8/17/1858.
Well, that statement is not well supported in the record. - Walt
As I have noted before, Walt does not support himself by the record. He argues WITH the record.
Well, it's plain you are interested in disinformation. I caught you in some hyperbole and some errors of fact, and N-S also turned up some things that were clearly flat wrng.
And you've made a clear error of fact in this note and quite a wllful one, too.
I -never- denied that Lincoln said any of these things.
What I said plainly--that it was not well documented in the record to say-- was that it was not correct to say that he only adopted an anti-slavery stance as a war measure. This weird perversion of yours won't get you much support, except among your small coterie of neo-confederate crazies.
You also said that I made some errors of fact. I challenged you to document one, and you come back with this lame stuff.
There is no doubt that Lincoln's attitudes about blacks changed over time. You choose quotes from 1858 because Lincoln's later statements don't suit you. This is willful disinformation on your part. I know you've seen the many quotes of Lincoln's that show how he grew over time. Too bad the USSR is defunct, TASS would have loved you.
Here are some Lincoln quotes, not for your benefit, but for the lurkers:
"This is essentially a people's contest. On the side of the Union, it is a struggle for maintaining in the world, that form, and substance of government, whose leading object is, to elevate the condition of men -- to lift artificial weights from all shoulders -- to clear the paths of laudable pursuit for all -- to afford all, an unfettered start, and a fair chance, in the race of life. Yielding to partial, and temporary departures, from necessity, this is the leading object of the government for whose existance we contend."
7/4/61
"Why should they give their lives for us, with full notice of our purpose to betray them?" he retorted. "Drive back to the support of the rebellion the physical force which the colored people now give, and promise us, and neither the present, or any incoming administration can save the Union." To others he said it even more emphatically. "This is not a question of sentiment or taste, but one of physical force which may be measured and estimated. Keep it and you can save the Union. Throw it away, and the Union goes with it."
-Lincoln's Men, p. 164 by William C. Davis
"But negroes, like other people, act upon motives. Why should they do anything for us, if we will do nothing for them? If they stake their lives for us, they must be prompted by the strongest motive--even the promise of freedom. And the promise being made, must be kept."
August 23, 1863
"it is also unsatisfactory to some that the elective franchise is not given to the colored man. I would myself prefer that it were now conferred on the very intelligent, and on those who serve our cause as soldiers."
April 11, 1865
And I think this is a very telling passage.
"Lincoln had Douglass shown in at once. "Here is my friend Douglass," the President announced when Douglass entered the room. "I am glad to see you," Lincoln told him. "I saw you in the crowd today, listening to my address." He added, "there is no man in the country whose opinion I value more than yours. I want to know what you think of it." Douglass said he was impressed: he thought it "a sacred effort." "I am glad you liked it." Lincoln said, and he watched as Douglass passed down the [receiving] line.
--"With Malice Toward None, p. 412 by Stephen Oates.
And here's another:
"After the interview was over, Douglass left the White House with a growing respect for Lincoln. He was "the first great man that I talked with in the United States freely," Douglass said later, "who in no single instance reminded me of the difference between himself and myself, of the difference of color."
ibid, p. 357
Abraham Lincoln was a great and good man. He deserves every iota of the acolades and remembrances that have been showered over him through the years.
"Pronouncing the death of the Old South, he [Henry Grady]lauded the New South of Union and freedom and progress. And he offered Lincoln as the vibrant symbol not alone of reconciliation but of American character. "Lincoln," he said, "comprehended within himself all the strength, and gentleness, all the majesty and grace of the republic." He was indeed, the first American, "the sum of Puritan and Cavalier, in whose ardentnature were fused the virtues of both, and in whose great soul the faults ofboth were lost."
--From "Lincoln in American Memory" by Merrill D. Peterson P. 46-48
Now, your last message, purported to show my statements, as anyone can see, if taken out of context
I can only assume you did it with a bitter heart. I sincerely hope that you'll be able to take a more reasoned and fair view of these events and I wish you a happy holiday season, and BEAT MIGHIGAN!!!
FIGHT WITH ALL YOUR MIGHT!
FOR THE ORANGE AND WHITE!
Walt
NOW HEAR THIS! Walt, the same guy who willfully ignores any historical evidence that conflicts with his agenda driven revisionism of history, is now accusing me of disinformation! What next? Is he gonna lecture me on making personal insults while simultaneously indulging in them himself? ROTLOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I caught you in some hyperbole
An admitted figure of speech in response to your own unadmitted yet present exaggeration of far greater proportion - is that the best you can come up with, Walt? ROTLOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
and some errors of fact
Such as?
and N-S also turned up some things that were clearly flat wrng.
Such as? his post alleging such turned out to be in error itself, as I corrected in my response to it.
And you've made a clear error of fact in this note and quite a wllful one, too.
What error of fact would that be? The quote? No. It's historical and real. Your quote? It's real too. My placing of them side by side? Consider yourself to have been taunted.
I -never- denied that Lincoln said any of these things.
No, you just flat out and intentionally ignored that he said them until I made you look at them by juxtaposing it with your own silly broken record statement. Sorry, but if that's what it's gonna take to get you to read those quotes, that's what I'll do.
What I said plainly--that it was not well documented in the record to say-- was that it was not correct to say that he only adopted an anti-slavery stance as a war measure. This weird perversion of yours
Your straw man is again noted, for I made no such assertion as has been pointed out to you repeatedly. I further invite you to demonstrate otherwise and note that simply being "anti-slavery" does NOT mean favoring action to emancipate the slaves.
won't get you much support, except among your small coterie of neo-confederate crazies.
Didn't you say something recently about people who make personal insults and their doing so based upon an inability to "marshal the facts"...hmmm....
You also said that I made some errors of fact. I challenged you to document one, and you come back with this lame stuff.
Only in your mind. Back in the real world, it is clear that I have time and time again documented your errors of fact: On the "starving garrison" at sumter, on the record of Robert E. Lee, on Lee's position over slavery (still waiting to see what crowd Lee was "paying lip service" to when he stated his position on slavery IN A PERSONAL LETTER!), on Jefferson's role in the constitutional convention, on Jefferson's correspondence with madison, on your historically incorrect presentation of Lincoln as a virtual secular saint of emancipation, on the beginning of the war, and on your intentional and repeated straw man misrepresentation of my position, among other things.
There is no doubt that Lincoln's attitudes about blacks changed over time.
Did they? And if so, how much? Cause (1) 1858 is pretty late in the life of a man who died only 7 years later and (2) Lincoln was still saying similar stuff about blacks 4 years later during the war.
You choose quotes from 1858 because Lincoln's later statements don't suit you.
Really? Do you have proof that this is why I chose the 1858 one? And if 1858 is not good enough for you, what about 1862, when Lincoln gave us this little gem of observation about blacks:
"You and we are different races. We have between us a broader difference than exists between almost any other two races. Whether it is right or wrong I need not discuss, but this physical difference is a great disadvantage to us both, as I think your race suffer very greatly, many of them by living among us, while ours suffer from your presence.... It is better for us both, therefore, to be separated." - Lincoln, speaking to a group of former slaves 8/1862
This is willful disinformation on your part.
How so? And once you are done explaining, prove it.
I know you've seen the many quotes of Lincoln's that show how he grew over time.
If he grew over time as much as you say, (1) why did one of the most bigotted statements on record come from him in 1858 towards the end of his life only 7 years before he died, and (2) why was he still stating pretty much the same thing in his comments in 1862 only 3 years before he died? Sure, I concede he did grow some in his opinions toward blacks, but only slightly and nowhere near the miraculous complete turnaround conversion you suggest.
Abraham Lincoln was a great and good man. He deserves every iota of the acolades and remembrances that have been showered over him through the years.
"Lincoln becomes the American solar myth, the chief butt of American credulity and sentimentality...the varnishers and veneerers have been busily converting Abe into a plaster saint...Worse, there is an obvious effort to pump all his human weaknesses out of him, and so leave him a mere moral apparition, a sort of amalgam of John Wesley and the Holy Ghost. What could be more absurd? Lincoln, in point of fact, was a practical politician of long experience and high talents, and by no means cursed with idealistic superstitions" - HL Mencken
Now, your last message, purported to show my statements, as anyone can see, if taken out of context
On the contrary. My last message served two purposes and two purposes alone:
1. To mock and taunt your idiocy, with full anticipation that the joke would be lost upon you.
2. To force your attention upon an historical quotation that otherwise you would have refused to acknowledge due to the fact that it contradicts your agenda-driven historical view.
Apparantly, I succeeded in both purposes!