Posted on 12/06/2001 6:35:33 AM PST by blam
SUNDAY DECEMBER 02 2001
Genetic survey reveals hidden Celts of England
JOHN ELLIOTT AND TOM ROBBINS
THE Celts of Scotland and Wales are not as unique as some of them like to think. New research has revealed that the majority of Britons living in the south of England share the same DNA as their Celtic counterparts.
The findings, based on the DNA analysis of more than 2,000 people, poses the strongest challenge yet to the conventional historical view that the ancient Britons were forced out of most of England by hordes of Anglo-Saxon invaders.
It suggests that far from being purged and forced to retreat into Wales, Cornwall and Scotland when the AngloSaxons invaded in the 5th century, many ancient Britons remained in England.
The study, conducted by geneticists at University College London, found that as many as three-quarters of the men tested in some parts of the south of England have the same Y-chromosome as the ancient Britons or Celts, rather than that of the Anglo-Saxons.
Overall, the scientists found that between 50% and 75% of those tested in parts of southern England were directly descended from Celts, implying that they had survived the Anglo-Saxon invasion. In Scotland the proportion of those with Celtic ancestry was found to be little different from the population of southern England.
"The evidence is quite strong that there is a substantial indigenous component remaining in England," said Professor David Goldstein, who led the study. "Genetics has opened up a powerful window on the past. We can now trace the movements of peoples and address questions that have proved difficult to answer through history and archeology alone."
The study, commissioned by BBC2 for its current Blood of the Vikings series, was designed to assess the impact of Norwegian and Danish Vikings, as well as Anglo-Saxons, on the British population.
Researchers took swabs of saliva from 2,000 people in 30 locations around Britain, and from 400 people in Norway, Denmark and Schleswig- Holstein, the area in northern Germany identified by the team as a homeland of the AngloSaxons. Those taking part had to have lived in the area for at least two generations.
Scientists then examined the Y-chromosome, which is passed unchanged down the male line of a family and is thus not altered by intermarriage.
The analysis showed that 60% of the men tested on Orkney were descended from Norwegian Vikings, as well as 30% of those in the Hebrides. While the Viking influence in these areas has been well known, it had been suggested that they were simply a ruling elite who did little interbreeding with the local population.
On the mainland, the survey found that 70% of those tested in York were from the continental European groups rather than the indigenous population, suggesting that the Anglo-Saxons made more of an impact on the Celts in northern England.
Only 10% of those tested in Wales were of Anglo-Saxon origin, confirming that it has retained an almost exclusively Celtic population.
In recent years the fate of the Celts in England has become hotly debated. Many historians have come to doubt the traditional story about the flight of the Celts from southern England, which was based largely on the account of Gildas, the 6th-century historian.
"There are various schools of thought ranging from near genocide (of the Celts) to almost total survival," said Patrick Sims-Williams, professor of Celtic studies at the University of Wales. "There could have been mass flight as well — it’s partly a matter of scholarly fashion, coming and going from generation to generation."
The genetic data will be eagerly received by scholars. Many of the place names in southern England have Celtic origins. Among them are Leatherhead, in Surrey, which meant "the grey ford".
"If you believe Gildas, the Anglo-Saxons would have been chasing the ancient Britons, catching up with one who wasn’t fast enough and saying, ‘Look here, before I cut off your head, just tell me the name of this place’," said Dr Margaret Gelling, a leading authority on place names.
Yes, but it is a little more complex.
The Normans were of course Scandinavians. Rollo, their leader and the Father of William was Norwegian, and many/most of his friends were Danes. They brought Scandinavian women with them when they occupied northern France, and married local French women as well.
The Normans who invaded England from the South were Scandinavian Vikings, both Dansk and Norsk. But the large numbers of Vikings who populated York, in the NE of England, were primarily Norse. Thus, the Norman Conquest was essentially a continuation of the larger battle between Vikings for the rulership of England.
The Old Testament refers to David as "ruddy and fair". This sounds like a Red-headed Irishman. Other Israelites in the OT are also referred to as "Blond and fair", etc. This aligns with the history of Ireland.
Yes, and how about those Blue-eyed Mandan Indians of North Dakota?
An excellent point. The Celtic Germani Tribe originally occupied present day Germany, and gave it todays name. But they moved West, replaced by Slavs, certainly no later than 500 AD and probably much earlier.
Descendents of Madoc and his Welsh group?
There is considerable mis-identification of "Celts" in England as being those small & somewhat darkish people seen in Cornwall, Wales and Brittany. In fact, these are simply the offspring of survivors of the very many shipwrecks in that region.
There has historically been a great deal of ship traffic between the Med and England, going back at least as far as the time of Christ. The Romans generated a huge amount of ship traffic, and Joseph of Arimethia, the rich Jew who gave Jesus his tomb, was a big-time shipper of Tin and other minerals from the SW of England to Palestine.
CHIEF OF THE MANDANS The Mandan Indians were almost wiped out by the smallpox abpit 160 years ago.. During the eighteenth centure, white explorers and trapppers heard legends of a small, peaceful Indian tribe, some of whom had blue eyes, blond hair
http://www.jkfa.com/lo/chiefofm.htm
An interesting assertion. The Celts were certainly found in the region of Northern Italy (Galatia, etc.) both before and after the time of Christ, but to assert that a LOT of Romans were Celts seems a stretch???
Do they have a web site?
Thanks, I'm familiar with the article and most others in the "popular" media.
That article, like most, makes the critical mistake of leaving the history of The Lost Tribes of Israel to Jewish tradition. Aside from writers usually just copying what they read somewhere else, there seems to be a Jewish self-interest in making sure the Lost Tribes remain lost. Most articles presume the Lost Tribes were Jewish, which is wrong right out of the gate, thus everything which follows is wrong.
(Click on my LostTribe PROFILE for more...)
Other writers say it relates to "Tribe of Dan". Some of the early Tribe of Dan bailed out of Egypt (along with some of the Tribes of Judah and Asher) when things were getting hot there for Abrahams descendents. This is before those 12 Tribes left for Palestine about 1415 BC. These "early leavers" traveled to and set up colonies in Spain and Ireland.
These early Danites should also not be confused with the major travels of the Tribe of Dan later, after which are named the Danube River, and the Dneiper and others, and after which the nation Denmark is named. The Danites were key in the peopleing of all of Scandinavia.
Also, the book of Jeremia discusses in some detail the later travel of the Prophet Jeremia, eventually ending up in what is believed to be Ireland. (Land of "jerries",etc. .)" It's a long story.
(Note: I'm no expert on Irish history, but was interested enough to spend a Post-Doctoral summer at Trinity College Dublin a few years ago, studying Ancient Irish History.)
Especially interesting in that BROWN not Blue is the dominant eye color. In the course of interbreeding, Blue tends to disappear.
As far as I know, everything proffered about the Mandan so far is pure speculation.
An interesting assertion. The Celts were certainly found in the region of Northern Italy (Galatia, etc.) both before and after the time of Christ, but to assert that a LOT of Romans were Celts seems a stretch???
< Bill Clinton voice> That depends on what the definition of "is Roman" is. < /Bill Clinton voice>
In the early and mid Roman Republic, Roman citizenship was limited solely to Latins. Even non-Latin ethnic groups in central and southern Italy were merely Roman allies (Socii) rather than citizens. That changed when the Social War resulted in the granting of full Roman citizenship to all Italians.
In 212 A.D., Emperor Caracalla granted Roman citizenship to all freeborn inhabitants of the Roman Empire. At that time, the freeborn descendants of the conquered Celtic tribes officially became "Romans".
It should be remembered that the Roman Legions did not all originate from Italy but were also formed with local recruiting in the fringes of the Republic and later the Empire. For instance, one of the Legions involved in the conquest and pacification of Britain was Legio 9th Hispana that was originally raised in Spain during the wars with the northwestern Celtic tribes in Hispania.
In the book, Noah's Flood, Ryan and Pittman speculate that the inhabitants of the Black Sea coastal region prior to the flood were Celts. The whole region was very arid at the time except for the fresh water coastal areas. They present some evidence that the 'refugees' from the Black Sea flood (now salt water and not good for irrigation/farming) streamed up the river valleys of the Don, Dnipier(sp) and etc., shoving out and displacing the inhabitants who were already there....and possibly spreading farming all over Europe. I take this migration a step further and speculate that the mummies of Urumchi (east China) are refugees from the Black Sea Flood also. The mummies are Celtic and the timing is about the same.
http://store.yahoo.com/magazinesofamerica/1771-6.html
I've read that the Phoenicians of Carthage viewed the tin source in England as their own private stash. Even to the point of militarly blocking other ships from exiting the Mediterranean at Gilbraltar.
Might be. What date are they using for the flood?
You can go the the SW of England to this day and see some of the old time mines that date their operations back several thousand years. The last one quit operating very recently.
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