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A Just Cause, Not a Just War
The Progressive ^ | December 2001 | Howard Zinn

Posted on 11/12/2001 1:59:35 PM PST by truth4all

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To: truth4all
Howard Zinn is a master Zen Idiot.
21 posted on 11/12/2001 3:11:42 PM PST by Moby Grape
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To: truth4all
This article is bizarre. With the author's criteria no one would be allowed the right of self defense because innocents may be harmed. Rubbish. Everyone agrees war is horrible, but the alternative is worse. Allow Bin Laden to overrun the US? This article is so myopic in scope that reading it was painful.
22 posted on 11/12/2001 3:16:15 PM PST by rebdov
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To: Gimlet
My point was the need to take care of them now, before we have to fight them on our own soil. And I mean totally destroy them.
23 posted on 11/12/2001 3:16:20 PM PST by arkfreepdom
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To: TigersEye
Amen, TigersEye! Amen!
24 posted on 11/12/2001 3:25:49 PM PST by .30Carbine
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To: truth4all
The most irresponsible choice the United States,(the only entity on earth that has the resourses and the power to rid the world of terrorism) could make, is to offer up our 6,000 slain Americans as sacrificial offerings upon the altar in appeasement to the Godlette of terrorism.

The suffering by the innocent children, women and the elderly that will inevitibly result from this assault upon terrorism will be horrible, but will be merely an inconvenience in comparision to what turning the other cheek to terrorists will result in.

The line is drawn in the dirt before the holes in which the terrorist snakes cower. They may live in the darkness they crave, or die. The choice is their's.

I believe the sheep shall one day lie down by the lion, but until the lion has been defanged,de-clawed and developed an appetite for veggies, only the lion will get up. I believe the meek shall inherit the earth, but only after the aggressors are tamed.

Dying is no fun but it is less embarrassing than living under tyranny.

25 posted on 11/12/2001 3:26:30 PM PST by F.J. Mitchell
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To: truth4all
This fellow is just another glib and arrogant anti-American propagandist. Almost every sentence relies upon a faulty premise or a selected "fact" from the media he claims is govt. controlled. If we wanted to inflict civilian casualties, clearly we've been doing a poor job of it compared to WWII. The UN? Ahem, Bin Laden called it criminal. I'm unclear, do we get out of the world, or give more money to it? I don't see poor Kenyans crashing planes into it. The "roots" of terrorism? Typical Western-lefty, still can't say and consider the word "religion." These terrorists aren't poor people. Should we be giving even more money to Saudi Arabia? We end sanctions on Iraq because of allegely dying babies. Will Saddam spend his extra money on child care?

In all, this fellow delivers a Oprahized version of the lefties' narcissistic vision of the world--that America is the center of it, and this American has the cure. The article's aim is to reaffirm anti-Americanism and deflect criticism and responsibility and reexamination of the Arab' world's own faults. Cearly the present crisis is a threat to the left's vision of the world.

26 posted on 11/12/2001 3:27:56 PM PST by Shermy
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To: Shermy

Please copy, email, print, send to any and every American you care to. Never forget.

27 posted on 11/12/2001 3:28:43 PM PST by SerpentDove
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To: truth4all
A pompous insignificant waste of good bandwidth, long winded to.
28 posted on 11/12/2001 3:30:48 PM PST by exnavy
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To: Gimlet
Call it what you like. To me, this point of view is ludicrous - as well as very dangerous. Let me ask you - have you ever been in combat? Ever been to the Middle East? I'm curious to find out your experience in areas that are pertinent to this discussion. The pacifists, by their own beliefs, obviously would give a negative answer to my questions. For them to discuss any manner or method of warfare is like asking the Pope about sex, or Clinton about integrity. This site is overflowing with pacifists today. I'm sick of their seditious talk. When the NA Forces were still in their static positions, all we heard from them was that this war is turning into another 'Nam. Now that the NA is rolling up the Taliban like a rug, it seems as though the leftists and pacifists are afraid of the fact that the right was indeed right this time.

The Taliban - and the rest of the tribes in Afghanistan for that matter - don't respect anyone who is weak. They live a hard life, averaging only 46 years. The weak in their world live much shorter than that. They didn't like the Soviets, but they respected and feared them. Complaints about collateral damage and striking of "civilian targets" is horse$hit. No nation on earth has EVER gone to such great lengths to avoid killing civilians in a military conflict as this one. If we, as the leading nation of the free world want to eliminate terrorism, we had better earn their fear and respect. They aren't ever going to like us - that's the entire reason that they are trying to kill us. If we succeed in making them at least fear us, and take away their ability to predict what our reaction will be to their strikes, then their attacks will stop. We will have effectively terrorized the terrorists. This is a simple case of good versus evil. Religion is only the shield that OBL hides behind for his Saudi masters. Once the world realizes that we finally have a President in the White House instead of a Resident, and that our President is going to look out for the nation rather than his own interests, the respect and fear that we deserve will once again be in place. The pacifists would rather that we deal with terrorists from a position of weakness. That is why they are pacifists - they LIKE TO BE THE VICTIM. That is about as un-American as it gets, and thank God that x42 is out of power. With luck, our entire political system will soon be rid of the closet communists (53 of them in the 'Rat party), and it will no longer be considered acceptable to be politically correct. These pacifists don't tolerate my views - such as yourself - so why the hell should I listen to theirs? In a conservative forum, no less. This garbage belongs over at Antiwar.com, the DU, or Hillary.com. Whether or not I'm referring to you there is up to you to decide. If the shoe fits....

I've got your parrot right here, Gimlet. Stuffed and mounted. And yes, it did taste like chicken.

29 posted on 11/12/2001 3:34:07 PM PST by 11B3
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To: truth4all
How can a war be truly just when it involves the daily killing of civilians, when it causes hundreds of thousands of men, women, and children to leave their homes to escape the bombs

As much as Zinn may long for the day when armies massed upon the plains and did battle a la Napoleon or the Romans, prisitnely isolated from the civilian world, it ain't gonna happen. That day is done and gone (and come to think of it, it never really existed, except in tabletop miniature games). So long as modern combatants hide among civilians, civilians will die. An ugly truth is no less a truth for being unattractive and distasteful.

30 posted on 11/12/2001 3:34:43 PM PST by RogueIsland
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We did use law enforcement, we did indict, we Interpoled, we UNed, we did plead and discuss, we did negotiate, we did join with other countries to demand the terrorists be brought to justice - for what they did in the first WTC bombing, in Somalia in African embassies, in Egypt, to the Cole and countless other slaughters. For years we have tried talk and negotiation and law enforcement.

The result: they killed 5,000 innocents in an attack on our industry and seats of government and defense leadership.

It is a just cause, it is past time for a just war. We are conducting it in a manner designed to minimize the slaughter of innocents. Tens, if not hundreds, of thousands of innocent lives are being saved by our actions to stop these murderers.

Zinn is at least an uninformed fool, at best a misguided heart. He should be patted on the head and sent to play in the corner where no one can be influenced by his feelgood self-righteous brain dumps.

31 posted on 11/12/2001 6:32:44 PM PST by D-fendr
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To: truth4all
How can a war be truly just when it involves the daily killing of civilians, when it causes hundreds of thousands of men, women, and children to leave their homes to escape the bombs,

Hmmm. Kind of describes Britian during the bombings by the Luftwaffe doesn't it? I guess NO WAR could be considered justified by this guy.

Many people had already FLED the towns and cities of Afghanistan precisely BECAUSE of the brutality of the Taliban who bombed THEIR way into Kabul after the Russians were defeated. Many people are having to leave now because the Taliban placed military installations and supplies IN RESIDENTIAL AREAS, making those areas targets for bombs.

32 posted on 11/12/2001 6:45:23 PM PST by SuziQ
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To: Gimlet
Zinn is one of those people we honored yesterday in all our parades. Thanks to him and people like him the last group who wanted to destroy our freedoms - Hitler and his crew - were thoroughly crushed.

George McGovern was a bomber pilot in WW2. Yet there is almost nothing that McGovern holds as a political philosophy with which I would agree.

Same appears to be true with Zinn.

33 posted on 11/12/2001 7:09:40 PM PST by Ole Okie
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To: Gimlet
I pray and hope and do believe we are doing our best to avoid civilian casualties but with no journalists there to tell the story...

Journalists - all of them! - have their own agenda, and that's what they peddle for "true story". Exceptions may exist but are irrelevant (don't prove anything).

Anyway, when a serious fight is on, there is no place for these gas-bags among the warriors.

34 posted on 11/12/2001 7:43:59 PM PST by Neophyte
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To: Neophyte
I am glad that journalists went ashore in Normandy!
35 posted on 11/16/2001 1:27:08 PM PST by Gimlet
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To: Ole Okie
Fair comment that you do not agree with the political philosophy of either Zinn or McGovern. Me neither. The point is that they are also patriotic Americans who have risked evrything so that we can continue to enjoy freedom. They are not traitors because we disagree with them. They are merely Americans with whom we strongly disagree and whose policies we must oppose - legally - not demononize as traitors.
36 posted on 11/16/2001 1:27:09 PM PST by Gimlet
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To: 11B3
Hmm - interesting vision of America you have going here. Glad you enjoyed the parrot. Actually - forgot to tell you this -it was found outside the wire of a terrorist compound - seemed it died a mysterious death. How are you feeling?
37 posted on 11/16/2001 1:27:10 PM PST by Gimlet
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To: CatoRenasci
I understand your point of view but find it oversimplified. A traitor is not a traitor because he/ she has a different point of view.
38 posted on 11/16/2001 1:27:24 PM PST by Gimlet
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To: truth4all
A few people die to save many. Civilization is protected. A bargan.

If my doctor says I have cancer and I will live a long and productive life if I loose no time in having it cut out. The long run, if I don't have the surgery I am going to long and painful death, I'm going to experiance the discomfort of having it it cut out.

Pacificsm is bad medicine.

39 posted on 11/16/2001 1:40:20 PM PST by oyez
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To: Gimlet
Gimlet, I agree with your comment. I know nothing of Zinn, but McGovern was a brave man who fought for his country and I respect him to this day for that.

Yet I think that George's political philosophy would have been ruinous for the United States had he been elected president.

He was defeated at the polls, which is as it should be.

40 posted on 11/16/2001 4:14:42 PM PST by Ole Okie
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