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To: BroJoeK
No "foregone conclusions" because Lincoln's orders were not to land "more troops and arms" if no resistance. In that case, basic supplies only.

Except that's not what the orders sent to the ships said, and those orders went out before the Pickens letter. It also begs the question, why send 300 riflemen and powder and such if you have no intention to off load them? You also forget, the Confederates knew what the ship's orders were, because they had spies and sympathizers all through the Navy at the time. That's why they were expecting those ships, and that's why the sighting of those ships was the trigger for the attack on Sumter.

It further begs the question, if you (the Union) are asserting control over that Fort, then why would you tolerate conditions regarding how you use it? Who's business is it if you want to reinforce as opposed to resupply?

Trigger?? So they were all modern students of psychology concerned with "trigger words", "virtue signaling" & "safe spaces"??

You want to make lame jokes about a choice of words? Would the word "initiate", or "Commence" or "Start", a war, be more satisfactory to you? The point remains. Most of the Cabinet agreed, sending those ships would "cause" a war. It did cause a war, yet slick Lawyer Lincoln made it look like the other guy started it, even though he knew full well he started it.

263 posted on 09/23/2017 11:14:02 AM PDT by DiogenesLamp ("of parents owing allegiance to no other sovereignty.")
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To: DiogenesLamp
DiogenesLamp: "Except that's not what the orders sent to the ships said, and those orders went out before the Pickens letter.
It also begs the question, why send 300 riflemen and powder and such if you have no intention to off load them? "

Yes, Lincoln's final orders to his commanders said exactly what he told SC Governor Pickens: no first use of force, no reinforcements if resupply is not resisted.
A minimum of troops were there to reinforce, but only if required, and Confederates fully understood it.

DiogenesLamp: "You also forget, the Confederates knew what the ship's orders were, because they had spies and sympathizers all through the Navy at the time.
That's why they were expecting those ships, and that's why the sighting of those ships was the trigger for the attack on Sumter. "

In fact, you don't know what Confederates knew or didn't know, you just assume what makes sense.
But Confederates certainly knew Major Anderson refused to surrender so long as his supplies lasted, after that he'd surrender.
So the arrival of new supplies delayed his day of surrender, that's all.
The decision to use that delay as his excuse to launch war was Jefferson Davis', period.

DiogenesLamp: "It further begs the question, if you (the Union) are asserting control over that Fort, then why would you tolerate conditions regarding how you use it?
Who's business is it if you want to reinforce as opposed to resupply? "

Exactly, and that's just what President Buchanan thought when he sent the Star of the West to resupply Sumter in January, a mission aborted when secessionists fired on that Union ship.
So Lincoln's resupply mission was a bit stronger, but still based on the idea that peaceful resupply, if normal & expected, should not be opposed.

DiogenesLamp: "...slick Lawyer Lincoln made it look like the other guy started it, even though he knew full well he started it."

Say that as often as you wish, the fact still remains that Confederates first demanded surrender then launched military assault to force it on Fort Sumter.
That was war, Lincoln's resupply ships were not.

Now let me add, if you read the newspapers of the time, especially the Richmond Dispatch, they were not bashful or embarrassed to say what happened at Fort Sumter.
On April 12, 1861 the Richmond Dispatch reported:

They didn't say "Lincoln started war at Fort Sumter!", no they accurately reported: Confederate troops opened fire on Fort Sumter.
Only much later did apologists like DiogenesLamp take pains to blame Lincoln for what Confederates did.

And let's add correspondence DiogenesLamp partially posted before, because it's telling:

Note that Confederate General Beauregard reported accurately Lincoln's intentions, but was ordered to "reduce" Fort Sumter.

270 posted on 09/23/2017 1:13:09 PM PDT by BroJoeK (a little historical perspective...)
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