I am sorry to tell you, but Sts. Augustine and Aquinas said what they said, and if their truths hurt you, then you might just stop and minute and ask yourself why?
Aquinas (†1274) clearly recognized the difference between theology based on the Bible, and natural-philosophy (aka "science") derived from our senses.
Aquinas did not expect they would conflict, but ever since his time, example after example has arisen where they seem to.
However, as early as St. Augustine of Hippo (†430 AD) the Church clearly recognized it is entirely possible for people to quote the Bible exactly, while drawing from it the wrong lessons, indeed lessons which "bring untold trouble and sorrow on their wiser brethren..."
I think the lessons from both are: 1) science and theology are separate fields, and 2) just because somebody can quote you chapter and verse from the Bible, doesn't make their understanding necessarily correct.
spirited irish: "if they were alive now, what would these two faithful believers have to do with the apostasy of evolutionary pantheist religionists?
Other than strongly rebuking it they would have nothing to do with it."
But nobody here is advocating "evolutionary pantheist religion".
What we are defending is science itself, against the assaults of anti-science anti-evolutionists.
spirited irish: "Years ago, long-time Vatican observer Malachi Martin (1921-1999) described a situation in which the Curia is divided between ‘progressive’ (evolutionary pantheists) and ‘traditionalists;’ between adherents of evolutionary conceptions such as Teilhard de Chardin’s Hermetic, quasi-Hindu idea, abortion, women and ‘gay’ priests, and openness to non-Christian nature religions and philosophies and those who oppose such an agenda.
"According to Martin, ‘progressives’ hold all the important positions of power."
FRiend, spirited irish, does it not give you even a moment's pause to be accusing your entire church hierarchy, including two soon-to-be-named saints (John XXIII & John Paull II) of a heresy fundamentally opposed to basic Catholic teachings?
Of course, my Mennonite ancestors, who opposed the whole idea of hierarchy, and suffered persecution from both Catholic and Protestant churches, they would not be so surprised at your accusations.
But I've seen no evidence to support your claims, and I think the two Popes fully deserve whatever recognition the Church can give them.
spirited irish: "With every word you have written you declare your unity with apostasy disguised as ‘science’ and dressed up in the traditional robes and terminology of Christianity but denying the living, personal Holy God in three persons in favor of evolutionary conceptions speaking of a pantheist entity in process of becoming."
Sorry, but that is false to the core, and you should be ashamed of yourself for so eagerly bearing false witness against me.
Of course, I would forgive you, since you obviously know not what you're saying.
But there is a sterner Judge you must eventually face, FRiend.
So don't be so quick to condemn what you obviously don't understand.
Other than my hatred of convoluted, twisted, disconnected from reality ‘reasoning,’ my ‘feelings’ were not ‘hurt.’ Hurt feelings are for adolescents, especially the adolescents in adult bodies so prevalent today.
BroJoeK: “Aquinas (†1274) clearly recognized the difference between theology based on the Bible, and natural-philosophy (aka “science”) derived from our senses.
Aquinas did not expect they would conflict, but ever since his time, example after example has arisen where they seem to.”
Spirited: Natural philosophy is derived from senses?!?!? Heaven deliver us from such patent foolishness! This assumption is entirely ignorant. Senses without spirit (mind) is madness. It is the realm of genetically-preprogrammed animals. Most have souls but not spirits, the seat of intellect, conscience, will. While souls are fully embedded within material bodies, spirits are not embedded within grey matter but open to the unseen dimension, the realm of God, angels and fallen angels.....which is precisely why ideas have consequences.
Like Augustine, Aquinas was an intellectual of the highest order and if alive today would be astonished at how ignorant, naïve and superstitious moderns have become. But then both men would see our obviously intellectually and morally impoverished age as further evidence of the fall.
BroJoeK: “What we are defending is science itself, against the assaults of anti-science anti-evolutionists.”
Spirited: From the post-flood age of Noah and his sons right up to our own, superstitious men have believed they would ‘evolve’ into gods. In Book I of the Gilgamesh Epic,
Gilgamesh boasts that he brought the ‘knowledge of everything’ with him from the highly advanced world that existed before the Flood. What knowledge did he bring? Of God, man’s origins, the Flood, science, evolution, symbols (precursor to the alphabet), agriculture, architecture and much more.
He also boasts of being 2 parts god, only one part man. Of course he believed he was evolving into god. Here we have the germ of what modern evolutionists call macroevolution, meaning one kind, man, transforming into another kind, god.
Many antiquarians believe that Gilgamesh and Nimrod (Amraphel in Genesis) were one and the same man. Nimrod means rebel, and this particular rebel against the Holy God Almighty was the son of Ham. Ham was worshipped by Greeks and Romans as Chronus I, his brother Mizraim as Chronus II. Mizraim’s sons were worshipped as Sun Gods. One of the sons was a man later worshipped as Hermes Trismegistus, the father of “science” and Mystery Religions whose magic formula, “as above, so below” is famous all around the world.
In a previous post you repeated a vastly popular folk myth when you spoke of our “pre-civilized hunter gatherer” past. This folk tale is an inversion of reality. Even pagan historians knew that a “Golden Age” (antediluvian world) preceded the world’s fall into successively degraded ages interspersed here and there by all too brief upticks.
If you are interested in cleansing your mind of folk tales, belief in evolution and inverted history, get hold of a copy of Samuel Shuckford’s “The Sacred and Profane History of the World Connected” (1808).