Posted on 09/20/2013 4:29:03 AM PDT by spirited irish
I think I've applied infinite grace and no damnation against the mockers here, especially YHAOS.
Of course, the simple solution is: just don't respond, but then I remain eternally optimistic that eventually YHAOS' alleged humanity will break through, and begin to realize that we are, in some sense, on the same team.
Isn't that worth some effort?
I think you just said it extremely well, and would only add that there's no way scientifically to discover which it is, nor does it matter in the slightest to the Bible's basic message.
These are matters we might speculate on forever... or until the day comes when we can see "face to face".
Sorry, but despite your labored attempts at contrived interpretations, the fact remains that you don’t get to dictate the answers to the questions you ask (anymore than do I expect the same from you).
The Assembly will view both and make their judgment. Surely, we may expect it to be varied.
Infinite grace?
Explain that claim.
Sorry, it was not serious, just trying to use your word "grace" when what I really meant was "patience" and "forbearance".
But it seems that no amount of patience or grace can raise the conversation with YHAOS above its current level.
That's too bad.
Past time to give it up...
Well, Bro, God was serious about infinite grace (at least enough grace to cover what would otherwise be an infinitely long doom in hell).
I suggest you be, too, if you think it is fitting to talk in such terms. Don’t diss the Lord.
Also, don’t get caught up in petty things. The bible condemns “quarrels about words.” Fruitful discourse occurs at a far higher level than the quibble. FAR higher. Even if those you disagree with quibble... don’t get dragged down to their level. You answer to God. You don’t answer to Satan!
What is this? You're going to play a word game with me, and then scold me for losing?
In fact, the word "grace" has several meanings, among which is what I assumed you intended: "a controlled, polite, and pleasant way of behaving," which is what I was trying to be -- with "infinite patience".
Of course the Bible speaks frequently of G*d's grace, meaning: "unmerited divine assistance given humans for their regeneration or sanctification"
But nowhere does it speak of either "infinite grace" or even, amazingly, "amazing grace".
Those are "added-to" ideas which you may feel essential to your own faith, but if you scold me for using them in a non-religious sense, then you speak only for yourself, not the Bible.
HiTech RedNeck: "I suggest you be, too, if you think it is fitting to talk in such terms.
Don’t diss the Lord."
Don't be ridiculous, FRiend.
HiTech RedNeck: "Also, don’t get caught up in petty things.
The bible condemns “quarrels about words.”
"Quibbles about words" are easily resolved by a visit to the dictionary, etc., to learn just exactly what they mean.
In this particular case, we are talking about two different meanings of the word "grace" -- one religious, the other not.
I was using the non-religious sense, but you've picked a "quarrel over words" by scolding me from the religious definition of "grace".
HiTech RedNeck: "Even if those you disagree with quibble... don’t get dragged down to their level.
You answer to God. You don’t answer to Satan!"
Sorry, but I consider both you and YHAOS to be fellow FReepers and FRiends, not "Satan".
So I'll happily engage either of you so long as there seems to be even a remotest chance of reasonable conversation.
But I'm giving up on YHAOS... seems to be a lost cause...
It seems to me, spirited Irish, that you're trying to put God in a little box that makes Him small enough for you to comprehend. Astronomical distances and astronomically huge times are apparently beyond you.
Our finite brains cannot really comprehend things that are infinite, such as God.
My you’re picky. You are a botanist who can see trees but not forests.
Well if Bro’s vision underwhelms, maybe it’s because it got dragged down.
While the Lord is of course infinite, being able to generate whatever He wants, He isn’t vague.
Without something to be “about,” even pleasure and pain fall into being meaningless things. It is good and evil that give them their ultimate context.
God WANTS you and every denizen of this earth to be unhappy with being their little potty self. That’s the only way you’ll see that you need more! Literally infinitely more!
And this in response to our, ahem, "discussion" over appropriate definitions of the word, "grace"?
Might I suggest, that's a fairly rapid leap to conclusions, in this case an unwarranted conclusion?
You prove my point. Your eye is on the petty. Firmly.
You're underestimating how puny your brain is compared to something infinite and incomprehensible.
My brain will never comprehend absolute truth, so I only can have faith that it exists.
I suggest you exercise a false humility.
God didn’t give 66 books and the book of nature and the Holy Spirit... to be vague. Might not furnish all the detail we WANT but he will furnish what we NEED to put our hearts to the purpose of glorifying Him. We ain’t egalitarian dualists, for example.
Curious, your use of the word "petty".
Still, I doubt if, in the Great Scheme of Things, "grace" is a necessarily "petty" subject.
Certainly the Bible doesn't think so -- it appears a dozen times in the Old Testament, only four times in the Gospels, but then over a hundred times in Acts and the Epistles.
So "grace" is important, and therefore it's important that we not confuse ourselves, or scold each other, or "quarrel over words" like "grace".
Just a small effort to clarify what we mean could still allow us a "graceful" exit from this, ahem, "discussion", FRiend.
Man, I’ve never seen such an energetic question-begger as you for a long time.
The bible condemns quarrels about words, and it’s for a good reason. That means we are not thinking about the larger concepts that the words were given to point to. Get the concepts straight then the words will fall into place.
And, indeed, grace is an excellent place to start, although notice please that it points beyond itself. “Unmerited favor” is a common definition. OK, let’s ask the question now, favor to do what?
Well, favor to do all the things that a God who is insistent on blessing us will do... if we will only stop refusing the blessing!
And the blessing is NOT vague.
You can accept certain things on faith, but to claim that your brain can actually know what it cannot compute is the height of arrogance. It's the same arrogance displayed by Richard Dawkins when he says "science" "disproved" God.
Well, we really accept EVERYTHING on “faith.” Subject the entire field of how we “know what we know” to the same skepticism that you subject God to... and you become a very inward turned solipsist.
And let me add, an unhappy solipsist.
How do we believe in radio waves? We performed enough experiments to show that this was eminently believable. We never proved that these weren’t invisible goblins.
Anyhow, God is also eminently believable. God has furnished a reason why we have such trouble believing in things God... it’s because of what is called sin. Sin is shutting out God’s blessings, seizing Satan’s curses in their place. And it is an unrecoverable situation without salvation. Go ahead and quibble about your doubts all day long, but when you believe and trace where the belief takes you... you will find God is no less real than radio waves are.
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