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Posted on 09/20/2013 4:29:03 AM PDT by spirited irish
Jesus did not align Himself with the Psalm 82 reference to “gods” He was contrasting the use of Psalm 82 with His authority. Another point is within context they were receivers of The Word, as opposed to the actual Word standing in front of them. This is consistent with John 1.
Pre-existing in the Mind of God...
Now we are well beyond my "Peter Principle" capabilities, but I can refer you for in-depth scholarly analysis on this question, and related questions, to one of my own sources: The Doctrine of the Trinity.
I take it as not necessarily authoritative, but representative of views of Christians otherwise described as "Unitarian" or "restorationists".
Since those included some of our Founding Fathers and about 50 million believers today, I am here asking they be treated with all due respect, as something better than "God Damned Heretics".
No! You apparently have never studied Greek.
The word Paul uses for God in Col. 2:9 (theotēs), translated “Deity,” is distinguished from another word (theiotēs) used often by ancient philosophers when referring to something or someone “divine.” The distinction is important for understanding Paul’s Christology. Christ is not “divine” in the sense that we speak of superb food as “simply divine” or of virtuous individuals as “godly.” Christ is much more than a superb person of godly virtue. Paul asserts that Christ Jesus is God in bodily form.
Col 2:9 is the only use of (theotēs) in the N.T. Clearly 2:9 does not refer to all Christians.
FRiend, the key to understanding here is realizing that, first and foremost, New Testament writers were all Jews, and while they certainly believed in Christ's divinity, they would, as Jews, in no possible way compromise the Oneness of God.
If that creates certain theological problems, I would suggest those can well remain unanswered, since obviously nobody knows enough to more concretely define God.
Firstly, I studied under a Jew for 9 years, and I understand their beliefs.
Secondly, Luke was a NT writer and a gentile.
Thirdly, God defines His attributes throughout the Word.
Fourthly, you are wrong on all points.
betty boop responding: "Absolutely not. Why should I?"
So, should I take you to mean you have no respect -- zero? -- for our Founding Fathers' religious views, that along with Kevmo you consider them to be "God Damned Heretics"?
You believe the United States was founded based on religious ideas of "God Damned Heretics"?
Are you sure?
To repeat myself: Jesus himself, in John 10:34 quotes Psalms 82:6 where human beings are called "gods".
It's a title of highest respect, not a suggestion of equality with the Almighty.
Likewise, the Old Testament term for "worship" is the same word used for bowing down to a king.
It does not mean the human king is God.
redleghunter: "If Jesus Christ was a divine being other than Deity, thus God, then the Jews of His time would not worship Him thus setting up a violation of Exodus 20."
Seems clear to me that the earliest Christians saw Jesus as the Son of God, sent by God to be their Messiah/Christ.
As such, he was divine/deity, but not God Himself.
Yes, I "get" that might cause certain theological problems in the minds of ancient Greek philosophers or Roman politicians, but I don't think such problems concerned the earliest Christians, or our Founding Fathers, or many believers today.
That's why I don't think any of those people should be condemned as "God Damned Heretics".
Do you?
Yes, but Ephesians 3:19 does, and with the same "fullness" you used to claim Paul wants us to believe that Jesus is God Himself.
GarySpFc: "Firstly, I studied under a Jew for 9 years, and I understand their beliefs. Secondly, Luke was a NT writer and a gentile. Thirdly, God defines His attributes throughout the Word. Fourthly, you are wrong on all points."
And Luke says explicitly that Jesus is God Himself where, exactly?
But God is just, and His love is not promiscuous.
God is NOT just.. God needs no justification..
Why?.... because he’s God... what he deems right is right..
Only under democracy is justification needed..
Gods Kingdom is not democratic..
Humans have no vote..
Jesus, Holy Spirit and God are not elected..
And Love is a nebulous word..
Operative words: Kingdom... and obedience..
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I know what you are saying. My point is believers are to fellowship in the Name of Jesus Christ. Seeking personal visions that are for you only were not the type of gifts given in the NT. They were for the benefit of all believers.
You’re wrong... and the comment flys in the face of the Golden Rule..
You’re to fellowship with everyone as much as possible...
You’re idea of what visions are and supposed to be is jaded by your agenda..
Obviously you have had no vision... else you wouldn’t say that..
When I asked the HS what I should do with “the” visions..
Tell people... inform various ones about this information...
The HS said it makes no difference because they will not believe you anyway.. (they don’t)..
After trying to share with a few I know.. he was/is correct..
Whats actually going on(on this planet) is quite different than “ALL I know” think is going on..
People seem to effected by millennia of religious clap trap and political propaganda.. and cultural nonsense..
But I do share with a few than tolerate me just so I can have any fellowship..
Even sharing this with you is a bit much.. but I’m generous..
FRiend, none of the proof-texts you quote actually say, “Jesus is God Himself”.
***Already covered by Betty Boop with you upthread. But a heretic troll like you likes to just blithely go on.
No one on this thread has denied the divinity of Christ.
But many followers of Christ — now and historically — do not agree that “divinity” necessarily means Jesus was God Himself.
***Jesus was a first century jew and so were his first followers, all believing that there was only ONE God. If you deny that He was that one God Himself, you deny His divinity and you are properly labelled a heretic. Jesus calls such false teachers ‘sons of the devil’.
In historical fact, Jesus was the “heretic” — the “blasphemer” — of his day, who was being “rooted out” by the Kevmo’s and spirited irish’s of the time.
***Sounds like you’ve been drinking too much heretic juice, troll.
Historically, the charge of “heresy”, like “blasphemy” was a threat of murder
***So what? Today you post on FR your heresies, and it means what it means TODAY. You’re a heretic. Today. We’re not posting on the wayback machine, we’re posting today, and today you are a heretic. Yes, God damns heretics and God has damned you as a heretic, so you are a God damned heretic. That’s no different than Jesus calling false teachers like you ‘sons of the devil’.
In fact, Jesus was not guilty of “blasphemy”, since he was speaking the truth.
*** I agree, Jesus was speaking the truth when He claimed equality with God before the sanhedrin and was condemned to death for it.
I have merely tried to speak the truth about Jesus, as it is reported in the New Testament.
***You have merely been spreading an ancient heresy of denying the that Jesus was God Himself. You are, quite simply, a heretic.
The necessity for proclaiming Jesus “God the Son” of the triune God-head, arises out of much-later challenges from Greek philosophy, and if I dare say this: Roman Empire politics.
NOT SO... Me, You, Jesus, Angels(good and bad) even Satan are Sons of God... men/women, good/bad, smart/dumb..
Not sexually/carnally but Creatively..
(A)IF indeed God created us all... (B)IF NOT then that is another narrative..
I’m going with “A”..
Is Jesus the Messiah?... I would say Jesus is “A” Messiah..
He said; “Pick up YOUR Cross and follow me”.. <<— he may have been serious..
Some do, many do NOT... they deny their Sonship..
Is Jesus God?... or is God Jesus?... Who cares?...
What is.... “IS”....... What isn’t.............. ISN’T...
Your bitterly foul language towards yours truly, BroJoeK, notwithstanding,
***My language towards you pales in comparison to the God of the Universe, Who properly condemns you as a son of the devil, a son of Satan.
the fact remains that historically and even today, millions of people have not interpreted those words in the same way you do.
***And hundreds of millions have properly interpreted the plain meanings of these words. They haven’t seen the need to twist historically reliable documents to fit their idealogical agenda the same way you have done. And yes, there are millions of people who hold onto a simple heresy that Jesus was not God Himself.
And historically many of those were persecuted and murdered for their “heretical” beliefs.
***Many, many more have been persecuted and murdered for holding onto the belief that Jesus is God Himself. Your point is ridiculous and moot. Quit spreading your damnable heresy on Free Republic.
So I am here to tell you, Kevmo, that neither they nor I deserve the verbal abuse you’ve dished out.
***Jesus dished out verbal abuse to false teachers and you would no doubt tell Him that you don’t deserve it. But you do, and I follow in Christ’s footsteps properly when I battle your false teachings and properly label you the same way Jesus would have: You’re a damnable heretic.
Jesus had no contempt for the New Testament.
***You’re supposedly a history buff, then you’d know that the New testament was written after Jesus was assumed to Heaven as Coequal with God Himself.
I have denied nothing the New Testament says about Jesus.
***Sure you have. Others have seen it, and properly condemned it as heresy right on this thread.
Your claims to the contrary, from the beginning have been false accusations.
***From the beginning I was being polite with you, but you accused me of all kinds of horse manure. It was only after I realized that you’re pushing heresy that I have risen to the same level of vehemence that the Lord has for false teachers as yourself, properly condemning your heresy. No doubt you would accuse Jesus of pushing “false accusations”.
Your false accusations are what make Kevmo equivalent to those who accused Jesus of “blasphemy”.
***You’re starting to lose touch with reality and with simple, straightforward writing. Perhaps you should take a writing class so you can promote your heresies more clearly. But I would not encourage it. What I would encourage is that you submit to the plain reading of scripture and what the vast majority of historians acknowledge about the death of Christ Jesus.
Indeed, proselytization is obviously the purpose of Kevmo,
***Why thank you. God tells us to do so, and I do it. Even you acknowledge that I’m following God’s command.
spirited irish & others on this News/Activism thread.
***And other threads, don’t forget.
It appears they have grown weary of their own Religion Forum’s many restrictions,
***Hah hah hah hah hah, the troll blithely hand waves over the experiment I posted and how all of his nonsense crap in the beginning of this thread would have been unceremoniously deleted on such threads. The heretic troll doesn’t read posts sent directly to him, doesn’t read any Free Republic threads that have been set up to discuss the kind of historical nonsense he pushes, and now that an open thread comes up he can’t handle the same medicine he dishes out. What an incredible, hypocritical, troll heretic.
and wish to unleash their “inner satans” on somebody, anybody, they can find to condemn as “God Damned Heretics”.
***You forgot to say, “Properly condemn as God damned heretics.” It’s so rare to be able to put that phrase together and not have it be a profanity. In this case it actually means what it says: YOu are damned by God as a Heretic and you should simply pull your head out of your rear orifice before there are severe spiritual consequences to pay for such actions.
This is their big break-out, and one can clearly sense their excitement.
***You would no doubt say that Jesus was excited when he condemned false teachers of His day as ‘vipers’ and ‘sons of the devil’. One can clearly sense the excitement in the plain reading of scripture. But going with the plain reading of scripture isn’t your bag, you prefer to twist it and engage in historical revisionism in order to push your damnable heresy.
Lots of very fine hair-splitting going on here.
***Yeah, by your troll companion.
The original Old Testament definitions are often today referred to as, “God Damned Heresies”.
***Well, it’s good to see you coming out into the open with your heretical beliefs. I would normally suggest that you present such definitions but I’m tired of cleaning puke off my screen. Keep your heresies to yourself. Stop spreading them on Free Republic.
But what if we are merely here to defend our Founding Fathers’ religious ideas,
***It doesn’t matter who held such heretical ideas in the past. It matters that you hold them, you heretic.
and those of millions today,
***Millions of heretics. Hundreds of millions, perhaps billions of true and faithful christians who uphold that Jesus is God Himself.
against false and often insane accusations: i.e., “God Damned Heretics”?
***Jesus labelled false teachers of His day in similar terms, such as ‘sons of satan’. No doubt you would say Christ wasn’t being Christlike when He did so, that he was false and often insane. Truly you are a God damned heretic.
You believe the United States was founded based on religious ideas of “God Damned Heretics”?
***It’s interesting that you try to steer the argument over here rather than to your own heretical beliefs. Heretical beliefs are heretical, regardless of who holds them. It is obvious that you hold heretical beliefs in denying that Jesus is God Himself, so are properly labelled a damned heretic, a God damned heretic. Yes, God properly damns you for holding such heretical beliefs.
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