Vanity: The Constitutional Meaning Of "Natural Born Citizen"

Vanity Essay | 31 January 2012 | sourcery

[SvenMagnussen]

Oops, NBC in MvH is obiter dictum.

[SvenMagnussen]

I did read his essay and took issue with “Types of Citizenship ...” That’s why I quoted it in the response. There is one type or classification of citizenship available and it is undefined, Natural born citizen.

You can be a US Citizen and not be a Natural born citizen and you must be a US Citizen to be a Natural born citizen. Attempting to define Natural born citizen classification through natural law or common law transgresses a specific classification to a term of art which fluctuates with current political headwinds.

At this time, we can only determine who is a Natural born citizen by eliminating those who are not ...

Non-US Citizens are not.
US Citizens who naturalized are not.
US Citizens who obtained their citizenship through statute are not.
US Citizens who have or have had dual citizenship are not.
US Citizens who had to swear an Oath of Allegiance to obtain their US citizenship are not.
etc ...

[DiogenesLamp]

Your response reminds me of just how well educated were the people in the past, and shows that they well understood the characteristics of the English language.

I once had an argument with a Freeper called “Sometimes Lurker” during which I pointed out that all of the promoters of the 14th amendment were aware of the term “natural born citizen”, if for no other reason than that they used it during the debates on the Amendment. That they were well aware of it and did not use it was not an accident. They INTENTIONALLY chose not to use that term. Two extra words would have cost them virtually nothing in terms of ink and paper, but the ramifications of it would have been substantial.

They considered it and decided against it, and that’s pretty much all anyone really needs to know about the 14th amendment’s impact on the Presidential Eligibility issue. The notion that it should somehow repeal the meaning of Article II “natural born citizen” is explicitly rejected by the evidence of the carefully chosen wording they used.

As for Mr. Rogers, I believe he is emotionally committed to his position, and appeals to reason will be continuously dismissed. That his ideas make no sense doesn’t matter to him. He has the faith of a zealot.

[Godebert]

Excellent essay. I would like to take issue with some of the facts relating to the contested election of William Loughton Smith to congress (1788).

You wrote:

"Before answering that question, consider the case of Congressman Smith. He was born in South Carolina before the American Revolution. At the time of the Revolution, he was not yet an adult. His parents were British loyalists, and fought against the Revolution. But after the Revolution and the adoption of the Constitution in 1788, he was elected to Congress. But his right to be seated was challenged on the basis that he was not a citizen, due to the actions of his parents."

William Loughton Smith (b. 1758), was sent to England by his father Benjamin in 1770 at the age of 12 years. Later that same year, his father died, a British subject, six years prior to the Declaration of Independence. Smith's mother died in 1760. William Smith did not return to America until 1783, after the bloody fight for our freedom was finished.

Ramsay basically asserted correctly that Smith's father Benjamin could not have passed U.S. Citizenship to his son as he died six years prior to the Declaration of Independence in 1776.

I believe Mr. Jackson in reply to Mr. Madison's argument, said it best:

The case was decided by vote in committee in favor of Smith, with the objections of Mr. Jackson as noted above. Political considerations seem to have trumped reason in this case, as there is no possible way that Smith could have been considered a U.S. Citizen prior to the year 1783, when he arrived in the newly created United States as a young man in his twenties.

[Kenny Bunk]

Bert, Bert, of course we are correct.

But what, my good man, does that have to do with anything? The Usurper sits in the WH and the cowards of the SCOTUS sit on their hands. No Republican elected representative or candidate will forthrightly address the issue. To paraphrase the extremely well-tailored millionaire drunkard who speaks for the Republican House of Representatives, "The State of Hawaii said he was born there and that's good enough for me."

I have come to the point where I don't even want their opinions. All I want is that someone ... anyone... in a position of representative responsibility to say, "Ya know, I don't know. That's a matter for the Supreme Court."

I have maintained from the beginning that the issue will have to be settled by one or two brave STATE election officials. We are grasping at the Georgia situation as a drowning man grasps at a straw. Has no one stopped to think that any State Attorney General has the absolute right to throw this man (or any man) from his state's ballot right now, forcing the issue to the courts? Out of 50 states are there not 10 Secretaries of State ...lawyers all ... who agree with the view left to us as a legacy of Roman and English law? That is a "Natural Born Citizen," is a citizen both of whose parents were citizens at the time of his birth.

[Godebert]

I hear you. Just making sure that those on our side have all the facts straight.

[sourcery]

But Madison argued that Congressman Smith's birth in South Carolina is all that mattered, because his place of birth came under the sovereignty of of the United States when the US came into existence.

No event subsequent to his birth extinguished Congressman Smith's citizenship in the sovereign state of South Carolina—which, since he was born there and his parents were citizens of the state, meant he was a subject born of South Carolina.

Madison's argument was that any citizen (natural or not) of South Carolina became a natural US citizen at the moment the US became sovereign over South Carolina, provided allegiance to the US was accepted by that citizen. Not a natural born citizen—because the parents would not have been citizens of the US when the person was born—but nevertheless a citizen by natural law, and not by any official act of naturalization.

Without a naturalization law that made Congressman Smith a citizen, and without his having duly undergone the naturalization process specified by such a law, his citizenship cannot be by means of naturalization, but can only be natural citizenship by the operation of natural law.

Right or wrong, that was Madison's argument. And it applies with equal force and legitimacy to all other citizens of the several States, whether they were at home or abroad at the moment the US came into existence. To be logically consistent, either all who were citizens of any of the several States and didn't reject allegiance to the US when it acquired soveignty over their State were citizens of the US by natural law, or none were. If none were, then all would have needed to be naturalized in order to be citizens.

[Godebert]

Interesting, but wasn’t Smith’s father also a British subject, and by natural law passed that condition to his son?

[sourcery]

Yes, of course. But the same was true of almost everyone else in the American Colonies, yes? That British citizenship asserted by the British Navy against US-citizen sailors of US ships was one of the causus belli of the War of 1812.

[Godebert]

So when exactly did Smith become a U.S. Citizen by natural law? Was it after the Declaration of Independence or after the Adoption of the Constitution?

[sourcery]

Per Madison, it was when the nation "The United States of America" became sovereign over the territory where one had citizenship, and the person accepted the new allegiance:

From an attention to the facts which have been adduced, and from a consideration of the principles established by the revolution, the conclusion I have drawn is, that Mr. Smith, was on the declaration of independence a citizen of the United-States, and unless it appears that he has forfeited his right, by some neglect or overt act, he had continued a citizen until the day of his election to a seat in this house.

...

Mr. Smith being then, at the declaration of independence, a minor, but being a member of that particular society, he became, in my opinion, bound by the decision of the society with respect to the question of independence and change of government; and if afterward he had taken part with the enemies of his country, he would have been guilty of treason against that government to which he owed allegiance, and would have been liable to be prosecuted as a traitor.

...

Those who left their country to take part with Britain were of two descriptions, minors, or persons of mature age. With respect to the latter nothing can be inferred with respect to them from the decision on the present case; because they had the power of making an option between the contending parties: whether this was a matter of right or not is a question which need not be agitated in order to settle the case before us. Then, with respect to those natives who were minors at the revolution, and whose case is analogous to Mr. Smith's, if we are bound by the precedent of such a decision as we are about to make, and it is declared, that they owe a primary allegiance to this country, I still think we are not likely to be inundated with such characters; so far as any of them took part against us they violated their allegiance and opposed our laws; so then there can be only a few characters, such as were minors at the revolution, and who have never violated their allegiance by a foreign connection, who can be affected by the decision of the present question. The number I admit is large who might be acknowledged citizens on my principles; but there will very few be found daring enough to face the laws of the country they have violated, and against which they have committed high treason.

Congressman's Smith's parents are not relevant. His father died before the revolution. What mattered was a) that he was a citizen of South Carolina when South Carolina became a State of the United States, and b) did not reject or betray his birth-allegiance to South Carolina or his acquired allegiance to the United States.

[Godebert]

Thanks for taking the time to explain Madison's argument. I'm sure Madison and the others involved were in a better position to judge Smith's character than I, and for the most part they decided he had not violated his allegiance to the United States.

I still disagree with the decision. Not necessarily with the natural law aspects, but rather that I agree with Mr. Jackson's comment about "sheltering under the shade of the British king". Smith reached the age of 18 years in 1776, yet did not return to America until 1783, after the war had ended. I guess that didn't qualify as "some neglect or overt act" as Madison put it.

I have to wonder if my hardscrabble Scots-Irish ancestors of South Carolina, who stood and faced those British bayonets, would have agreed with Mr. Madison.

[sourcery]

Would the British have permitted Mr. Smith to return? Would they have arrested him for treason if he tried? If they knew or suspected he was returning to join the Revolution ("rebellion," as they would have seen it,) they probably would have.

All we have is the testimony of the members of Congress at the time. And Dr. Ramsay's argument against Smith was theoretical, as far as I can tell, and not based on any specific reasons to doubt Smith's allegiance to the US.

But that's all beating a dead horse. What matters now is the way the Founders conceptualized the issues of citizenship, not whether they may have been mistaken in their application of them to a particular case.

[celtic gal]

As I understood it, Mittens great grandfather escaped to Mexico because he had 4 wives at the time. Mittens father was born in Mexico but was his mother one of the American wives or a Mexican wife...would’t the answer to that question shed more light on his status assuming that if his mother was one of the American wives then Mittens would be an American citizen since I gather he was born here when his father returned to the US. And did his father have dual status or what? I wonder why this is not a topic in the news or is Bammy saving this if Mittens ends up the nominee?

[W. W. SMITH]

In order to buy land or own land in Mexico one must be a citizen. That first Romney bought a huge ranch in Mexico. He was a Mexican citizen.

[Arthur Wildfire! March]

I once asked if our Founding Fathers wanted the King of England to have the right to sire a bastard who is born in the US, be informally known as the Prince of America [spinoff of the Prince of Wales], and then be raised and groomed to one day be eligible as President of the US. For some reason, no one ever answered that question, maybe because that was one thing they wanted to prevent?

[SERKIT]

As I understood it, Mittens great grandfather escaped to Mexico because he had 4 wives at the time. Mittens father was born in Mexico but was his mother one of the American wives or a Mexican wife...would’t the answer to that question shed more light on his status assuming that if his mother was one of the American wives then Mittens would be an American citizen since I gather he was born here when his father returned to the US. And did his father have dual status or what? I wonder why this is not a topic in the news or is Bammy saving this if Mittens ends up the nominee?

Barry wouldn't touch it, but some of his PACs might. If Barry brought up NBC it would backfire - bad - on him. My point has always been: If birthers and NBC'ers are consistent, they HAVE to expose Mitten's dubious heritage. There are those here who feel he is "good to go", while others are taking a sober breath and looking into it. If, like Barry, Mitten's dad was not a citizen at the time of Mitten's birth, then we may see TWO candidates running for office who are ineligible. Where is the objective consistency?

[sourcery]

Preach it.

It’s the Constitution that matters. Act like it!

[DiogenesLamp]

In order to buy land or own land in Mexico one must be a citizen. That first Romney bought a huge ranch in Mexico. He was a Mexican citizen.

That is a good point, but is it possible that there is an explanation other than him being a Mexican citizen? For example, we know that it is currently Mexican law that one must be a Mexican citizen in order to buy land in Mexico.

*MY* recollection of Mexican history is that this policy was only implemented after the Mexican Revolution in 1910. Prior to that, non Mexicans could buy and own land in Mexico. It was one of the issues that led to the revolt by the Zapatas in the South, and Pancho Villa in the Northern part of Mexico. They objected to Americanos exploiting their land which they regarded as at the expense of the poor peasants.

When did Gaskell Romney buy this land in Mexico? I'm pretty durn sure it was prior to 1910. Wasn't George born in 1907? I would assume he had bought the land prior to or around that time.

[Publius6961]

The laws of citizenship in 1907 conferred U.S. citizenship upon him.

Oh really?
Which "laws of citizenship in 1907," exactly?