Posted on 06/22/2009 5:33:32 AM PDT by SeekAndFind
***The concept of endowed rights neednt mean to imply a creator.***
The concept of ‘endowed rights’ comes with the implied endower. If not God, who endows?
***The principle of reciprocity doesnt need a god for it to function.***
Not by itself; it does need a moral basis for man engaging other men in trade in a fair and honest fashion.
Most of the so-called atheists are really nothing more than Christian Atheists... all they can do is give you some harrowing display of blasphemy against Jesus, but they will gladly bend over and spread their cheeks for Islam because they are too much the cowards to fight it... For them, Christians and Jews are easy targets.
Myself, I don’t care why the Islamics hate me, I just want them dead. I’m not interested in saving anybody.
So long as someone is willing to pay there will always be someone willing to collect...
The only issue for most is who holds the collection plate in their temples for the god of communism or the gods of religion.
Morality and all of its associated ideals are rooted entirely in a presupposition some higher power defines what is correct for human behavior.
The argument of some higher purpose is religious fallacy. Whether this is done by atheists or by the godists, it is exactly the same.
***Arrogance is a hallmark of atheists.
I’m sure the believers never display their smug sense of superiority by claiming that they have been “saved”.***
The behaviour of humility is what the Saviour ordered. Christians are not to be smug about something that they cannot know - it is up to the Judge, not any little pocket deity.
For whatever reason, many atheists try to de-convert Christians anyway. I see them on Christian message boards all the time. It puzzles me though, since I never bothered searching out Christians when I was an atheist (and yes, I strongly believed that there was no god).
“Real believers, if they had the highest faith in a god-figure, would not waste a single minute living their ordinary lives- they would be out crossing oceans, to risk life and limb to spread what they believe is the truth. For that, I have a lot of respect for certain missionaries from various faiths, even if I don’t believe their message to be true.”
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I can agree with that. While I am not an atheist I simply don’t believe in the concept of eternal damnation and I cannot imagine why those who claim to believe it often keep living as though they don’t believe it at all. I think anyone who really believed the doctrine would instantly give up anything that would interfere with going to heaven. Nothing could possibly be worth risking an eternity in hell.
I have actually known some who said that they know they are going to hell but they just can’t change. I simply don’t believe that they believe what they are saying.
The concept of endowed rights comes with the implied endower. If not God, who endows?
There is no morality without one singular source defining what it is.
Platos Euthyphro is a great illustration. Socrates advanced the argument to Euthyphro that, piety to the gods, who all want conflicting devotions and/or actions from humans, is impossible. (Socrates exposed the pagan esoteric sophistry.)
Likewise, morals are such a construction of idols used by the Left as a rationale for them to demand compliance to their wishes in politics, which most often are a skewed mess of fallacies in logic. Morals are a deceptive replacement for the "avoidance of sin."
***The principle of reciprocity doesnt need a god for it to function.***
Not by itself; it does need a moral basis for man engaging other men in trade in a fair and honest fashion.
The Hindu calls this Karma.
Lord Krishna instructed Arjuna to ignore wordly constructs such as human morals - they are self-deceptive delusions that keep us from becoming the Atman.
Which one is Kalki?
We are talking about what Jesus taught. If I were an atheist I'd really push for people to follow what Jesus taught.
They're the "Perez Hiltons" of atheism.
Except they are not judging beauty contests but courtrooms, and grading papers in universities.
And they are not making fools of themselves but exercising power in attempting to establish a value system. For instance, by claiming words don't really mean what they were meant to say.
The first step in understanding what I am getting at is not to believe in God but to recognize that truth is an absolute -- not something relative and situational -- and that there is a purpose to our existence.
The next step is to understand that there is a moral code i.e. good and evil that transcends the will of man and to which each man and woman must account.
After recognizing those principles, you will believe in God.
I should have added you to 228 too :-)
******The concept of endowed rights neednt mean to imply a creator.***
The concept of endowed rights comes with the implied endower. If not God, who endows?
There is no morality without one singular source defining what it is.
Morals are a deceptive replacement for the “avoidance of sin.”***
I’m not following your post as well I really should. Could you please restate? If something is endowed, then there is an endower. Who is that, if not God?
And if you would, are morals internal or external?
******The principle of reciprocity doesnt need a god for it to function.***
Not by itself; it does need a moral basis for man engaging other men in trade in a fair and honest fashion.
The Hindu calls this Karma.***
Call it what you will; there is indeed a moral basis for fairness and honesty.
*** Lord Krishna instructed Arjuna to ignore wordly constructs such as human morals - they are self-deceptive delusions that keep us from becoming the Atman.***
Explain your use of the term Atman. Do you mean it to be the individual soul, or to be the Supreme Lord. If the first, it makes little sense - I am who I am - and if the second, then it also makes no sense unless you are fusing Hindu and Mormon theology.
***Which one is a picture of Jesus from Revelations?
Which one is Kalki? ***
What is the significance of two paintings side by side that resemble each other in certain ways - the horse, the sword and the direction of travel? What is your point?
“I am who I am.”
Exactly.
***I am who I am.
Exactly.***
Fine; can you explain your previous statement in which you state that morals prevent it.
Consider the alternative.
Why should perfect righteousness and perfect justice endure evil in its presence for all eternity?<>p>A lot of people read into Scripture their own understanding, rather than bringing Scripture into their mind and spirit through faith in Christ and letting God make it understood in our spirit.
We all stand eternally damned from Adam's original sin in the Garden.
Christ redeemed that sin for all of mankind. Redemption, though is not forgiveness.
There is nothing that says God in Perfect Righteousness and Perfect Justice must endure evil in His presence for all eternity.
God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, so that those who believe in Him, who simply have faith alone in Christ alone, might be given everlasting life.
As soon as any human has just smigeon more faith than no faith whatsoever in Christ, God is free to justly, righteously, and by His grace forgive us of all our sin and give the believer a regenerated human spirit, an eternal life and He seals those whom He loves.
While it is true that nothing could be worth spending an eternity in the Lake of Fire, the nature of volition and the fallen carnal soul out of fellowship with Him, isn't seeing Him through faith in Christ, but through a scarred mind.
Where remission of sin occurs, there is no more sin offering, but a fearful expectation of His wrath. If the children of Moses who had so much less, were dealt with so severely, what expectation does the carnal soul have of true justice and righteousness when judging ourselves?
Nevertheless, through faith in Christ, all sin has been redeemed, and He is fully satisfied by the payment already made, allowing Him to justly forgive our sins when we face Him and confess those known and unknown sins to Him.
Too many people confuse fellowship with God with morality or religion. The basics of a relationship with perfect righteousness and perfect justice are much more simple, direct, and provided by God Himself, simply by our exercising faith alone in Him alone, in what He has already provided.
I like your tagline.
I do believe in eternal damnation, as a lot of people do, but in answer to your comment. I think that a lot of people who don't live like they believe in eternal damnation don't change is because they don't think it's going to do any good.
That's the position I was in many years ago. I knew I sinned and deserved to go to hell for it, but I figured that I had done too much and gone past the point of no return. That's because I was basing my salvation on good works.
Basing it on the forgiveness offered through Christ, gives you a clean slate and a chance to start over.
Now, nobody is perfectly capable of living a perfect life, forgiven or not. If someone is really flip about it, I'd question what they really believe.
We all start at different points when we come to Christ. I knew someone who was a sincere Christian, but was very rough around the edges. Many people in church questioned whether or not he was really a Christian. But if you looked at where he came from and how far he'd come, the difference was staggering. He'd made more progress than any 10 people I know; he just had a lot further to go.
That could be another factor in why some people don't seem to live like they believe in hell.
Just curious. Jesus talked more about hell than heaven. He taught that it is real. Why do you choose not to believe that?
Eh? Read up on my comment history, again. I've always maintained that I'm an Atheist, here. Moreover, I've even declared that I pit one religion against another to prove each one of them wrong.
I’ve posted something about it in comment #161:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/2276740/posts?page=161#161
Like I said before, religions, being the inventions of the minds of men, is also a sort of popularity contest.
If any faith allows a spectrum of devotion to be a member of its flock, then this is the mos obvious sign that the religion is a man-made invention. If a person is truly devoted to his or her god whom he or she believes to be all-powerful, then this earthly life is nothing compared to the afterlife. If a person of faith places restrictions and limits on what he or she can do for his faith, in life, then it is indicative of his or her earthly ties being stronger than the spiritual ones. It's simple logic, abundantly evident.
See the Hindu version of the same limits:
Yet, hard | |
The travail is for whoso bend their minds | 15 |
To reach th Unmanifest. That viewless path | |
Shall scarce be trod by man bearing his flesh! | |
But whereso any doeth all his deeds, | |
Renouncing self in Me, full of Me, fixed | |
To serve only the Highest, night and day | 20 |
Musing on Mehim will I swiftly lift | |
Forth from lifes ocean of distress and death | |
Whose soul clings fast to Me. Cling thou to Me! | |
Clasp Me with heart and mind! so shalt thou dwell | |
Surely with Me on high. But if thy thought | 25 |
Droops from such height; if thou best weak to set | |
Body and soul upon Me constantly, | |
Despair not! give Me lower service! seek | |
To read Me, worshipping with steadfast will; | |
And, if thou canst not worship steadfastly, | 30 |
Work for Me, toil in works pleasing to Me! | |
For he that laboreth right for love of Me | |
Shall finally attain! But, if in this | |
Thy faint heart fails, bring Me thy failure! find | |
Refuge in Me! let fruits of labor go, | 35 |
Renouncing all for Me, with lowliest heart, | |
So shalt thou come; for, though to know is more | |
Than diligence, yet worship better is | |
Than knowing, and renouncing better still | |
Near to renunciationvery near | 40 |
Dwelleth Eternal Peace! |
See post 161.
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