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To: AndrewC
That is a meaningless question.

I don't think it is. I think you're waxing philosophical or theological in a way that obscures a real difference. Life turns water into wine through well understood, manipulable, controllable, repeatable physical processes. Miracles don't work that way. I understand that it may be all the same to God, but as participants in the physical world He created, I think the difference between things that just happen because of the actions of His physical laws, and things that require a violation or suspension of those laws, is a valid one.

119 posted on 05/10/2009 8:16:45 AM PDT by Ha Ha Thats Very Logical
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To: Ha Ha Thats Very Logical; AndrewC

I want to amend my earlier statement about miracles. It is possible that what we call a “miracle” actually does occur through the processes I referred to. It’s entirely possible that there is a level of control over those processes that some physical being could achieve but that most of us can’t. It calls to mind Clarke’s statement that “Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.”

But it would be hubristic to claim that there is no “miracle” that other humans could not eventually master, whether through spiritual and mental advancement or through technology. So maybe it’s as simple as “a miracle is something God can do but we can’t.”

But I think the distinction about whether it requires hands-on intervention or not is still a valid one.


123 posted on 05/10/2009 9:00:56 AM PDT by Ha Ha Thats Very Logical
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To: Ha Ha Thats Very Logical

Isn’t this like the argument about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin? The point is at the other end just like mankind can’t answer all of your theological questions until you/we come face to face w/ the Author of Life.

I think I know where you want to go w/ this argument as I’ve seen this argued on FR debates before. Man appointed sin and death - not God. So the consequences of mankinds sin are death, disease and also natural disasters.

The primary point missing - you/we have no authority to question why God does what God does - neither to assign blame nor judgement. So often we simply forget our place before a Holy and Awesome God - self will is subordinate to His Will.

Now for the time being He has suspended His Will to allow your self will
- free will to choose whether or not to worship Him (as was mankinds primary created purpose). Everything else is not worthy to compare - in the same way this world is not worthy to compare w/ Heaven.


133 posted on 05/10/2009 10:05:06 AM PDT by BrandtMichaels
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To: Ha Ha Thats Very Logical
I don't think it is. I think you're waxing philosophical or theological in a way that obscures a real difference. Life turns water into wine through well understood, manipulable, controllable, repeatable physical processes

You mixing answers and questions. First you asked me what I thought. I answered you and why I thought that way. Accept it or not. That is my answer. You won't badger me into some position you have dreamt up. You asked me and I answered. God is timeless, therefore any reference to restrictions on him vs time are meaningless. Whatever our perception of the "event".

Secondly, I asked you what you considered a miracle and I gave examples of what could be considered miracles. You made a blanket assertion, "Miracles don't work that way". Well, how do you know? Have you witnessed a miracle? And if so why did you consider it a miracle? I asked an atheist what she would consider a miracle. She did not answer. So, I still say your question is meaningless, it may be due to a profound difference in our view of God, but nonetheless my answer remains. But let me give you a hint, God knows our prayers "before" we speak them.

Psa 139:4 For [there is] not a word in my tongue, [but], lo, O LORD, thou knowest it altogether.

Psa 139:5 Thou hast beset me behind and before, and laid thine hand upon me.

Psa 139:6 [Such] knowledge [is] too wonderful for me; it is high, I cannot [attain] unto it.

God does not have to "violate" or "suspend" his physical laws to perform a "miracle". A million continuous rolls of seven by a pair of dice is not impossible(and does not violate any physical law I am familiar with) but it sure isn't likely. And a person doing so would likely be shot around the fiftieth roll.

136 posted on 05/10/2009 11:48:08 AM PDT by AndrewC (Metanoia)
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