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To: djf; betty boop; Alamo-Girl; BykrBayb
I am reminded of the line in the Patti Smith tune - “Why must we pray screaming?”

And seems to me he gets only mediocre reviews as a father - what kind of father lets his kids pull some of the sh*t we do?

Dear djf, if you want, I will come and sit beside you on your mourning bench. It has been almost two weeks now since my dear son Alex was stabbed to death. I haven't been able to sustain much interest in anything else or even to bring myself to post much of anything. But seeing your post I will venture out a little bit here to share your grief. It you want me to just to sit silently with you I can do that. I understand. For a moment, though, please let me pour out a little of my soul. Maybe it will help someone else listening in.

I am so blessed and grateful for how my dear sisters betty boop and Alamo-Girl and many, many others here, and many others elsewhere have lifted me and my grieving family up to the Father in prayer.

Where else can I go? To whom else can I go, but to God?

"Why?" is the natural cry of the heart. Perhaps the better question, though, is the one asked by the Psalmists over and over; "How long, O LORD?" How Long?

Psalm 90

BOOK FOUR
From Everlasting to Everlasting
A Prayer of Moses, the man of God.
 1Lord, you have been our dwelling place
   in all generations.
2 Before the mountains were brought forth,
   or ever you had formed the earth and the world,
    from everlasting to everlasting you are God.

 3You return man to dust
   and say, "Return, O children of man!"
4For a thousand years in your sight
   are but as yesterday when it is past,
   or as a watch in the night.

 5You sweep them away as with a flood; they are like a dream,
   like grass that is renewed in the morning:
6in the morning it flourishes and is renewed;
   in the evening it fades and withers.

 7For we are brought to an end by your anger;
   by your wrath we are dismayed.
8You have set our iniquities before you,
   our secret sins in the light of your presence.

 9For all our days pass away under your wrath;
   we bring our years to an end like a sigh.
10The years of our life are seventy,
   or even by reason of strength eighty;
yet their span is but toil and trouble;
   they are soon gone, and we fly away.
11Who considers the power of your anger,
   and your wrath according to the fear of you?

 12 So teach us to number our days
   that we may get a heart of wisdom.
13 Return, O LORD! How long?
   Have pity on your servants!
14Satisfy us in the morning with your steadfast love,
   that we may rejoice and be glad all our days.
15Make us glad for as many days as you have afflicted us,
   and for as many years as we have seen evil.
16Let your work be shown to your servants,
   and your glorious power to their children.
17Let the favor of the Lord our God be upon us,
   and establish the work of our hands upon us;
   yes, establish the work of our hands!

What is faith?

I read this one time:

"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." Hupostasis, the word translated "substance," means "that which underlies the apparent; that which is the basis of something, hence, assurance, guarantee and confidence" (Spiros Zodhiates, The Complete Word Study Dictionary: New Testament, p. 1426). The English "substance" is built from a prefix and a root which together mean "that which stands under." Webster's defines it as "the real or essential part or element of anything; essence, reality, or basic matter." It is very similar in meaning to hupostasis.
Faith is not only being sure of what we hope for, certain of what we do not see, faith itself is the "evidence", literally, "title deed" of things real, yet unseen. I struggled for a long time to understand the meaning of that phrase, "faith is the evidence of things unseen." How could faith itself be the evidence? That's didn't make any sense to me.

What helped me to understand it was when someone explained it to me like this; Can you see your ownership of your house? You know your ownership of your house is real, but you cannot actually see the ownership, can you? Yet, you know you own your house, and you have the title deed as evidence of it. You don't need any convincing that you are the owner. You are assured of it. For me, that is at least some of what faith is.

Perhaps you have not really lost your faith. Maybe you just need to do a title search for it, and take a look at the hard copy of the deed.

I grieve with you in the loss of your wife, djf. Anybody who glosses over the awfulness of death with platitudes really doesn't know what they're talking about. It is truly awful.

Yet, I can, by the grace of God alone, say this in the midst of my overwhelming grief;

23You who fear the LORD, praise him!
   All you offspring of Jacob, glorify him,
   and stand in awe of him, all you offspring of Israel!
24For he has not despised or abhorred
   the affliction of the afflicted,
and he has not hidden his face from him,
   but has heard, when he cried to him.

 25From you comes my praise in the great congregation;
   my vows I will perform before those who fear him.
26 The afflicted shall eat and be satisfied;
   those who seek him shall praise the LORD!

Cordially,

136 posted on 11/24/2008 9:54:07 AM PST by Diamond
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To: Diamond

Your testimony is precious to me, dear Diamond, like broken bread and poured out wine. May God bless you and your loved ones always.


143 posted on 11/24/2008 10:36:47 AM PST by Alamo-Girl
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To: Diamond; djf; Alamo-Girl
"Why?" is the natural cry of the heart. Perhaps the better question, though, is the one asked by the Psalmists over and over; "How long, O LORD?" How Long?

Dear Diamond, your beautiful testimony brings tears to my eyes, for the simple truth and glory of it.

I continue daily to lift prayers to our Father for you and your grieving family. Especially I am praying for the souls of the two brothers.

May God ever bless you and all your dear ones, may His Spirit be with you, comfort you, and bear you safely through your devastating loss!

147 posted on 11/24/2008 11:44:14 AM PST by betty boop
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To: djf; Diamond; Alamo-Girl; joanie-f; hosepipe
And seems to me he gets only mediocre reviews as a father - what kind of father lets his kids pull some of the sh*t we do?

A father who respects the freedom of his children? If God prohibited evil in this world, then what would that do to human liberty?

I look at it this way: God made a world that is "good," not "perfect." Had He made a "perfect" world, it would be perfectly static. For what is already perfect cannot be improved upon. Therefore, man would be eliminated as a partner in the great hierarchy of being. Yet it is clear to me from reading the Bible that God deliberately intended for man to have a creative role in the unfolding of His Creation.

A-G's book addresses the problem of Good and Evil:

The Existence of Evil
Some believe that God, being good, could have no hand at all in the existence of evil. Others believe that God created both good and evil to serve His own will for us.

But, as my beloved sister in Christ ... puts it: God declared His Creation to be “good,” not “perfect” (Genesis 1).

Truly, if God had made everything perfect from the beginning, this heaven and earth would not be dynamic, and man would have nothing to do. As ... says, ‘In creating the universe as He did, it seems God deliberately designed it in such a way as to leave a very large creative role for man in the fulfillment of His Purpose. For He charges Adam with the command to be the faithful steward of His creation, and bids him to be fruitful.’

As another example, God of His own will put the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the Garden of Eden. It was to be observed — but not taken in, not “eaten” (Genesis 2).

Likewise I assert in the body of this book that we, the adopted children of God, learn by observing contrasts. We know health because we have known sickness. We know light because we have seen darkness. We know good because we have seen evil. And so on.

In the text, I seek to distinguish between God’s permissive will and His creative will, that His Creation moves towards His good purpose (the new heaven and earth), and that He permits things to occur in this heaven and earth that will not be permitted in the next heaven and earth.

Again, He could have made everything perfect from the beginning, but He didn’t. The point is that all things resulting from the permissive and the creative will of God work together for the good of His adopted children (Romans 8:28). We learn from observing these contrasts in this heaven and earth.

Growing up as His adopted children, I assert, is the meaning of life — what “all that there is” is “all about.” And I assert that is the underlying theme of “Our Father Who art in heaven” — the first phrase of the Lord’s Prayer and the first chapter of this book.

Evil comes into the world, not necessarily because God deliberately put it there (i.e., creative will), but because He wants man to be free to choose (i.e., permissive will); and free men always have the option of choosing evil.

It seems to me the evil in this world is not built into the design of Creation, but is largely the result of free human choices. Of course, this does not explain the early death of your wife, which is a perceived evil.

Yet I am reminded of Socrates' statement to the Athenian jury which had just condemned him:

...It is now time for us to depart hence, — for me to die, but for you to live. Which of us, however, will arrive at the better thing is manifest to none but Divinity. [tr. Sydenham and Taylor]

Such knowledge likely will not comfort you on the devastating loss of your dear one. So I pray that the Holy Spirit, the Comforter, will come to you and lift your burden of grief and anger....

May God ever bless you, djf — you and all your dear ones!

148 posted on 11/24/2008 12:30:56 PM PST by betty boop
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