Posted on 11/07/2006 5:04:59 AM PST by sukhoi-30mki
The PRC is picking up in their training, too. They don't get as many hours as American pilots, but, then, NOBODY gets as much training as American combat pilots.
On the other hand, maybe they just need to beat Taiwan...
All they need to do is wait for a Dhimmicrat admistration and the peaceniks will give them the designs to be "fair" (or for money).
In many cases I'd expect these to be better than the originals. Sadly, this is due to all the offshoring of Western high tech. The PRC now has what used to be in Silicon Valley.
No doubt. And, all the US quality management and high tech development principles have been learned by all the Chinese engineers and managers who used to work for Western companies and their Chinese partners. They then change jobs into defense and there you have it. Offshore a server or chip today and get a trained Chinese defense employee tomorrow.
Quantity has a quality of its own.
Bump! No kidding. We taught them how to do it, but the ijits who saw no harm as they would be good loyal low-priced workers for our production... now pretend they can't do anything...
I am not to worried about Chinese fighters right now. But some day, they will be used to defend Chinese expansion into Siberia. The Russians are selling the Chinese the technology to slit Russian throats.
However they might as well be paper planes against the Raptor.
The main thing to realize is this. The Raptor is not 'just' a Stealth fighter. Actually in my opinion stealth is just ONE of several things that make the Raptor supreme. What stealth is is an enabler ....it enables the Raptor to do things at a totally different level. Basically turning Houdini into Merlin.
But the thing is this .....even without stealth the Raptor would STILL be the most lethal platform flying. Yes, even without stealth. For one its kinematic perfomance is simply off the charts. A Raptor can release a JDAM at high altitudes and supercruise speeds, in effect making the JDAM's range far greater than it could actually be. Added to the kinematic perfomance this means that the Raptor could target a double-digit SAM battery, release the JDAM, and be out of there before the SAMissile could reach it (since it could do all this while at the extreme range of the SAM's radius of interception).
Then there are the sensors. The AESA radar carried by the Raptor is a beast. Actually it cannot even be compared to the one used by the F-35 JSF (in terms of range, modules, and wattage) ....and note that the JSF's radar is also an AESA. Add to this that the Raptor's AESA is LPI, meaning that it is actually very hard to know that it is even targeting you.
Then there is the weaponry. While Russia (I won't say China since most of their stuff is merely clones of Russian or Western stuff) has some very good missiles, and thus China will probably have them as well, the thing is that the Raptor also carries some of the best missiles in the world. The AIM-9X (which with the Raptors helmet-cued targeting system and agility, and the missile's off-bore ability, would make any short-range engagement with a RAptor highly imprudent), and ofcourse the AMRAAM (which by itself is highly lethal .....BUT THEN ADD the Raptor's kinematic performance, which would give the AMRAAM a significant boost, and also add to this the Raptor's sensory suites, and the AMRAAM goes from being a terrifying missile into becoming the veritable hand of god in aerial engagements!). Actually the Raptor would probably never have to use the AIM-9X .....the AMRAAM would do all the work because there would be almost no chance of a foreign fighter getting close enough to necessitate the use of heaters ....and anyways, the use of heaters (short-range IR missiles) has nowadays become highly dangerous since so many countries are already using IR missiles that have large no-escape zones, off-bore ability and helmet tracking (think about the Ruskie R-73, the German IRis-T, the Euro ASRAAM, our AIm-9X, the Israeli Python 4 and 5), meaning that we are quickly approaching a time when a short-range engagement between aircraft carrying next-gen IR A2A missiles will basically be tantamount to mutually assured destruction (as in MAD ....both planes will shoot each other out of the sky)! And anyways, no pilot wants to close in like that. Most would want to simply destroy their foe from BVR.
Anyways, my point is this. Even if you took out the Raptor's stealth it would still be better than anything else flying there. The Eurofighter would have a far better chance, but the Raptor would still be number one.
And with stealth ....well, let's just say that China is $h!t out of luck! They will not even be able to match the Raptor 2 decades from now.
Yes yes yes, I've read the Chinese and Pakistani forums that say how China is coming up with a stealth fighter that will be 'better' than the Raptor, or how they can shoot down the Raptor because they know how the F-117A works (even though comparing a F-117 with a F-22 is like comparing a Bobcat with a ravaging man-eating Lion), but all of that is pure cr@p. The Chinese (and Pakistanis) love to brag, in the process spewing forth all sorts of nonsense.
Bottom line: China may have impressive SAMs (once again, from Russia ....whether or not they have Chinese names), and I am sure these will become more 'impressive' as they either buy/steal/clone technology (and their industrial base IS getting ever more sophisticated by the YEAR). True, this technology will eventually work its way to Iran. But the fact remains ......that technology would have a difficult time keeping up with the Eurofighter Typhoon (at least when the Tranche 3 version comes out). Goodness, Chinese fighters would probably not even know what hit them if they faced off against French Rafales!
And against the F-22 Raptor .....well, let's just say even Death would be surprised when those Chinese pilots started popping up in Hades WAY before schedule. Simply put, don't listen to Chinese propaganda. It is even worse than that of the Soviets during the Cold War. While the Chinese are capable (they are not Iraq during the Gulf War 1 era), and their capability is increasing by the year, they ARE NOT any match for the cutting edge when it comes to US military hardware and software.
Goodness, they are not even near-equal to theRussians. The Chinese have been having big issues developing an aircraft jet engine (they re working on their WS-10). So much so that they had to simply buy more engines from the Russians. While there has been some progress on the WS-10, you cannot expect a nation that has difficulties in such an area to suddenly start shooting down Raptors enmasse!
Maybe 2 decades from now China will be in a serious position to do that, but then the question is just what the heck will the USAF be fielding then? Ask yourself that.
However they might as well be paper planes against the Raptor.
The main thing to realize is this. The Raptor is not 'just' a Stealth fighter. Actually in my opinion stealth is just ONE of several things that make the Raptor supreme. What stealth is is an enabler ....it enables the Raptor to do things at a totally different level. Basically turning Houdini into Merlin.
But the thing is this .....even without stealth the Raptor would STILL be the most lethal platform flying. Yes, even without stealth. For one its kinematic perfomance is simply off the charts. A Raptor can release a JDAM at high altitudes and supercruise speeds, in effect making the JDAM's range far greater than it could actually be. Added to the kinematic perfomance this means that the Raptor could target a double-digit SAM battery, release the JDAM, and be out of there before the SAMissile could reach it (since it could do all this while at the extreme range of the SAM's radius of interception).
Then there are the sensors. The AESA radar carried by the Raptor is a beast. Actually it cannot even be compared to the one used by the F-35 JSF (in terms of range, modules, and wattage) ....and note that the JSF's radar is also an AESA. Add to this that the Raptor's AESA is LPI, meaning that it is actually very hard to know that it is even targeting you.
Then there is the weaponry. While Russia (I won't say China since most of their stuff is merely clones of Russian or Western stuff) has some very good missiles, and thus China will probably have them as well, the thing is that the Raptor also carries some of the best missiles in the world. The AIM-9X (which with the Raptors helmet-cued targeting system and agility, and the missile's off-bore ability, would make any short-range engagement with a RAptor highly imprudent), and ofcourse the AMRAAM (which by itself is highly lethal .....BUT THEN ADD the Raptor's kinematic performance, which would give the AMRAAM a significant boost, and also add to this the Raptor's sensory suites, and the AMRAAM goes from being a terrifying missile into becoming the veritable hand of god in aerial engagements!). Actually the Raptor would probably never have to use the AIM-9X .....the AMRAAM would do all the work because there would be almost no chance of a foreign fighter getting close enough to necessitate the use of heaters ....and anyways, the use of heaters (short-range IR missiles) has nowadays become highly dangerous since so many countries are already using IR missiles that have large no-escape zones, off-bore ability and helmet tracking (think about the Ruskie R-73, the German IRis-T, the Euro ASRAAM, our AIm-9X, the Israeli Python 4 and 5), meaning that we are quickly approaching a time when a short-range engagement between aircraft carrying next-gen IR A2A missiles will basically be tantamount to mutually assured destruction (as in MAD ....both planes will shoot each other out of the sky)! And anyways, no pilot wants to close in like that. Most would want to simply destroy their foe from BVR.
Anyways, my point is this. Even if you took out the Raptor's stealth it would still be better than anything else flying there. The Eurofighter would have a far better chance, but the Raptor would still be number one.
And with stealth ....well, let's just say that China is $h!t out of luck! They will not even be able to match the Raptor 2 decades from now.
Yes yes yes, I've read the Chinese and Pakistani forums that say how China is coming up with a stealth fighter that will be 'better' than the Raptor, or how they can shoot down the Raptor because they know how the F-117A works (even though comparing a F-117 with a F-22 is like comparing a Bobcat with a ravaging man-eating Lion), but all of that is pure cr@p. The Chinese (and Pakistanis) love to brag, in the process spewing forth all sorts of nonsense.
Bottom line: China may have impressive SAMs (once again, from Russia ....whether or not they have Chinese names), and I am sure these will become more 'impressive' as they either buy/steal/clone technology (and their industrial base IS getting ever more sophisticated by the YEAR). True, this technology will eventually work its way to Iran. But the fact remains ......that technology would have a difficult time keeping up with the Eurofighter Typhoon (at least when the Tranche 3 version comes out). Goodness, Chinese fighters would probably not even know what hit them if they faced off against French Rafales!
And against the F-22 Raptor .....well, let's just say even Death would be surprised when those Chinese pilots started popping up in Hades WAY before schedule. Simply put, don't listen to Chinese propaganda. It is even worse than that of the Soviets during the Cold War. While the Chinese are capable (they are not Iraq during the Gulf War 1 era), and their capability is increasing by the year, they ARE NOT any match for the cutting edge when it comes to US military hardware and software.
Goodness, they are not even near-equal to theRussians. The Chinese have been having big issues developing an aircraft jet engine (they re working on their WS-10). So much so that they had to simply buy more engines from the Russians. While there has been some progress on the WS-10, you cannot expect a nation that has difficulties in such an area to suddenly start shooting down Raptors enmasse!
Maybe 2 decades from now China will be in a serious position to do that, but then the question is just what the heck will the USAF be fielding then? Ask yourself that.
"the PL-12 offers a big performance increase over the present export standard of the Vympel R-77"
Really? I thought the Adder was one of the premier short-range AAMs out there (at least regarding agility). Does the fact that it's an export model make that much of a difference?
The Adder is the AA-12/R-77 active radar missile,which is the Russian equivalent of the AMRAAM.I think you are referring to the AA-11 Archer,which is short-range AAM.The PL-12 will supposedly be the Chinese MR-AAM to challenge the AMRAAM & AA-12.
Yes,it's most probably got to do with the export configuration for China.Despite China buying truckloads of weaponry,they have never really got the cream of the pie like thrust vector engines,EW systems,the SSN-26 Yakhont missile etc unlike say India.I would safely hazard a guess & say that the PL-12 won't be as sophisticated as other existing versions of the AA-12.
Yes, and then there is the sodium glutimate headache afterwards. I like to Fox them when they are in a spring roll.
"One raptor, in competitive tests against six F15's destroyed all six before it was even seen."
Which means very little if it is out-numbered 10-1. Remember the Raptor has a unit cost 10 times that of the SU 27
No question the F-22 is best, but we need real numbers. You're not thinking asymmetrically...and you're failing to take account of Chinese progress in passive radar techniques that may counter this particular stealth approach's major advantages. Not to mention that we have no F-22s hardly to speak of because this administration refused to buy hardly any to have enough to put into dangerous theaters. 170...which they still haven't bought... is a complete joke. There certainly aren't any in Taiwan. And we just forcibly "retired" the 60+ F-117...which at least could have provided some useful numbers. And the Chinese likely will be the ones on the offense from the get-go...and the planes on the ground...say in Guam or South Korea, etc. when the balllistic barrage catches us off guard...will be toast. Just like Pearl Harbor. Sitting Ducks.
So besides a heck of a lot more F-22s, we need a real in-depth missile defense capability, both kinetic and directed energy. And we need a restored ASW capability which has been decimated and allowed to become almost a completely lost art to the US Navy. Only our minimal remaining numbers of attack subs give us much capability there. And they have no tactical nuke "fish"...meanwhile, the Shanghai Pact enemy has not disarmed themselves unilaterally in this way.
The point I was trying to make was that the Raptor is basically beyond anything that China has/will be coming up with for quite some time (at least 2 decades, and that is if Raptor capability stagnates at its present point). While there are passive ways of detecting stealthy aircraft, some of which have alright levels of efficacy (for instance the F-117 would have issues over China, and the F-35 JSF would DEFINITELY have problems over China if it went there solo .....although that is something that will not happen since Raptors will have ensured all REAL threats to the JSF are long ago eliminated .....more on the JSF at the bottom of this post). Anyways, there are some ways of detecting stealth, but the thing is all of these have serious flaws.
Moreover once you add in the Raptor's sheer kinematic perfomance (eg altitude plus Supercruise) then you have a situation where the Raptor could launch a JDAM at a range that simply puts it beyond virtually all SAMs! This is why I was telling Thunder-90 that even WITHOUT stealth the Raptor would still be too much for China. The thing is this, the Raptor can release the JDAM at a range that is basically near the maximum engagement envelop of the SAM, and then it would turn back and fly home. By the time the SAM gets there (even at mach 4 speeds) the Raptor (even cruising at mach 1.5) would be beyond the SAM.
And once you add stealth this ability is even more enhanced.
The interesting thing about the Raptor is that its effectiveness as a strike-bomber is equal to its effectiveness as an air-superiority (actually air-supremacy) fighter.
Anyways, that was my point. China may have some good missiles and planes (from Russia, since the Chinese love to brag how they 'made this' and 'made that'). That is the truth. And the SU-30MKK is a very serious fighter (no matter what some on FR may say, and saying that Russian planes -like the MiG 29 - are crap because they were being shot down in Iraq with ease is a major mistake since for one the IRaqi airforce was a rag-tag unit flying monkey-model versions. Now, let the Indian SU-30MKI and MiG-29s fly against the current Pakistani F-16s, and you would see kill scores that would make Viper pilots cry! The Indian Sus would be destroying Pakistani F-16s while the Paki Vipers are still over Pakistani airspace).
Anyways, China has some good stuff. And they will get better stuff. And someday they will be a major threat unless we gird our loins (and based on some of the decisions being made we are not doing this, but that is another story). However in response to Thunder-90's comments of China having a solution against the Raptor, and even selling it to Iran ....well, that is pure BS. The Chinese do not have the ability, and even if they had the ability to 100% negate the Raptor's stealth (whcih they don't) they still wouldn't be able to handle the Raptor due to its sensory suites and kinematic perfomance (coupled with guided weaponry).
We need more Raptors. That's for sure. And we need to keep a VERY close eye on China, as well as ensure we have sufficient (viable) stratagems to ensure that Shaghai doesn't Pearl Harbor us. That's the truth right there Mr. Ross.
However with all of that the Raptor is simply beyond anything China will be fielding for the next 20 years (oh, and they claim to be working on a stealth fighter ....the JX(X) ....that is supposed to be 'better' than the Raptor. Well, before they do that they need to make jet engines better than those of the Russians).
As for the F-35 JSF. It is a great aircraft (although it has several faults, like weight issues in the STOVL version). However it is no Raptor (and the truth is it was specifically made NOT to be a Raptor ....otherwise what is the use of a Raptor? Add the intention for it to be low-cost ....ha ha, as if ....and the plane is definitely not meant to be a Raptor). However even so it is arguably the second or third most effective jet out there. The thing is, for Australia, is that it will replace the F-111 (a very long range strike plane, which gives Aussie-land real teeth in the region) and their F-18s. The problem is that .....well, let the Aussies explain it in their own words.
The link can be found here:
http://www.ausairpower.net/0830-ASPI-Rebuttal-HR.pdf
They make points on why the F-35, while an amazing plane and absolutely great for the USAF (which will have Raptors as well as other assets ensuring the battlespace is sanitized), will not work for the Aussies.
Bump. Agreed on all the rest as well.
in the last 5 years, the US economy grew by one "China".
The Chinese should be thinking about what we have coming after the Raptor. Consider fighters that have technology from the Airborne Laser Lab..... Their fighter may be agile for a fighter, but it is unlikely to out maneuver laser beams....
Fighters are fun, Bombers make policy.
I think the F-35 would do well for the Aussies. Indonesia (200 million) is a pretty good buffer between China 1,000,000 million and Austrailia 12 million{?). I think they would like a bit of a different version, say big NAVY wings with light AF landing gear, for longer range.
Small, efficient units of Diggers would sure take a very heavy toll on any amphibious landing from the north, and air forces would attrit the landing force before they landed, and cut the supply lines between any amphibious force and the bases from which the amphibious landing was launched.
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