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To: Sam Gamgee
I do understand your distaste with the implication that Poles were unique in collaborating or turning in Jews. France collaborated and handed in Jews most readily. And America and Canada refused boatloads of Jews in the 30s.

I am glad that you understand. And Jews themselves had many willing colaborators. The problem is not with the Poles, or with the Jews or with any particular nation. The problem is with the fallen human nature which is shared by all.

One of the mechanisms of vilification/dehumanization of some group is projecting the universal tendency toward evil on the selected group. This was used against Jews by the Nazis, it was used by the West against the Serbs. But the border between good and evil goes through the every heart. As Solzhenitsyn said:

"It was granted to me to carry away from my prison years on my bent back, which nearly broke beneath its load, this essential experience: how a human being becomes evil and how good. In the intoxication of youthful successes I had felt myself to be infallible, and I was therefore cruel. In the surfeit of power I was a murderer and an oppressor. In my most evil moments I was convinced that I was doing good, and I was well supplied with systematic arguments.

It was only when I lay there on rotting prison straw that I sensed within myself the first stirrings of good. Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties either, but right through every human heart, and through all human hearts. This line shifts. Inside us, it oscillates with the years. Even within hearts overwhelmed by evil, one small bridgehead of good is retained; and even in the best of all hearts, there remains a small corner of evil."
(Alexander Solzhenitsyn, Gulag Archipelago )

If someone wanted to be a hero, at the time of WWII he would protect the Jews, if someone wanted to be fair in 1999 he would raise the voice to defend the Serbs (heroism was not needed in 1999, little civil courage and honesty was enough)

18 posted on 11/17/2005 8:50:49 PM PST by A. Pole (Lord Palmerston: "Nations had no permanent enemies or allies only permanent interests")
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To: A. Pole
Well certainly we all have a fallen nature. If I was to be honest I have certain bigotries.

That is essentially why we require systems of government that limit the use of our nature against another's. That's why I would regard any totalitarian form of government as conducive to evil.

Of the Serbs I probably need some convincing. It seems strange that Milosovic was the last communist hold out. I have a hard time believing that he was doing anything other than playing the "nationalist" card for his own political ends. So I am interest how it is you feel the West vilified Serbs.

I have to admit I would naturally have taken side against Serbia itself, because the history I know, regarded her as an aggressive nation. One that attacked it's neighbors as the Ottomans shrunk from Europe, and staged acts of terrorism against Austria-Hungary in order to gain the aid of Russia to expand the borders of its own nation.
19 posted on 11/17/2005 9:41:42 PM PST by Sam Gamgee (I hate hippies - Eric Cartman)
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To: A. Pole
http://www.serbia-info.com/enc/history/modern.html

http://www.serbia-info.com/enc/history/conquest.html

Thought I would do a Google and see what I could find. Indeed Catholic Europe owes much to the Balkans people who were the vanguard against Islam. I was surprised to find out 58% of the male Serbian population was wiped out in WWI. The site implies that Austria used the assassination as a pretext for war against Serbia. That seems to contradict the fact that Austria was having a hard enough time keeping peace in the empire and the last thing it wanted was another ethnic peace to its puzzle.
20 posted on 11/17/2005 9:50:12 PM PST by Sam Gamgee (I hate hippies - Eric Cartman)
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