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To: CarolinaGuitarman
But you said ID affects religion and threatens atheism.

Right. The idea behind modern atheism is that the universe is a creation of chance. ID breaks that pillar. Technically, you can still be an atheist and believe in ID though.

BTW, we already have a non-supernatural designer for life, Natural Selection.

So, via the designer of natural selection, how did the bacterial flagellum come about?

200 posted on 10/19/2005 12:04:56 PM PDT by Tribune7
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To: Tribune7

"The idea behind modern atheism is that the universe is a creation of chance."

Oops. Wrong. That's not the idea at all. It's all very orderly, and follows the natural laws. There's no chance involved in the big things, and what seems like chance in the small things isn't, really.

That cosmic ray that whacked one of the genes of some one-celled creature was just random. What happened after that followed the laws of nature. And so it goes.

We just don't understand all of it yet.


201 posted on 10/19/2005 12:08:20 PM PDT by MineralMan (godless atheist)
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To: Tribune7
"Right. The idea behind modern atheism is that the universe is a creation of chance. ID breaks that pillar. Technically, you can still be an atheist and believe in ID though."

You didn't get the memo I see. ID is not about religion or God, so they say.

"So, via the designer of natural selection, how did the bacterial flagellum come about?"

In ways that Behe could never imagine. You DO realize that the flagellum has been found to not be irreducibly complex don't you? That Behe has admitted as such? Gotta keep up with the news! :)
202 posted on 10/19/2005 12:10:18 PM PDT by CarolinaGuitarman ("There is a grandeur in this view of life...")
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To: Tribune7
So, via the designer of natural selection, how did the bacterial flagellum come about?

Try here

Abstract: The bacterial flagellum is a complex molecular system with multiple components required for functional motility. Such systems are sometimes proposed as puzzles for evolutionary theory on the assumption that selection would have no function to act on until all components are in place. Previous work (Thornhill and Ussery, 2000, A classification of possible routes of Darwinian evolution. J Theor Biol. 203 (2), 111-116) has outlined the general pathways by which Darwinian mechanisms can produce multi-component systems. However, published attempts to explain flagellar origins suffer from vagueness and are inconsistent with recent discoveries and the constraints imposed by Brownian motion. A new model is proposed based on two major arguments. First, analysis of dispersal at low Reynolds numbers indicates that even very crude motility can be beneficial for large bacteria. Second, homologies between flagellar and nonflagellar proteins suggest ancestral systems with functions other than motility. The model consists of six major stages: export apparatus, secretion system, adhesion system, pilus, undirected motility, and taxis-enabled motility. The selectability of each stage is documented using analogies with present-day systems. Conclusions include: (1) There is a strong possibility, previously unrecognized, of further homologies between the type III export apparatus and F1F0-ATP synthetase. (2) Much of the flagellum’s complexity evolved after crude motility was in place, via internal gene duplications and subfunctionalization. (3) Only one major system-level change of function, and four minor shifts of function, need be invoked to explain the origin of the flagellum; this involves five subsystem-level cooption events. (4) The transition between each stage is bridgeable by the evolution of a single new binding site, coupling two pre-existing subsystems, followed by coevolutionary optimization of components. Therefore, like the eye contemplated by Darwin, careful analysis shows that there are no major obstacles to gradual evolution of the flagellum.

228 posted on 10/19/2005 12:56:46 PM PDT by js1138 (Great is the power of steady misrepresentation.)
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