Exodus: Is It Time To Leave Public Schools Behind?

Morality in Media ^ | February 2005 | Sharon Secor

[TruthConquers]

Excellent find!

I just trust myself better than public schools any day.

The other area that has been in the news lately has been History. It is just awful how America's children are being robbed of their rightful heritage by those, in general, that hate America and are teaching children to hate their own country. I like the Classical Christian curriculum that has children going though History in time periods from Ancient Egypt to Modern times, but IN CONTEXT. One century after another. It is inspiring.

Duh! That could be why it is NOT done.

[Smartaleck]

"I apologize. I was very upset and the rich store of examples needing paring down."

Thanks. When one is upset is probably not the best time to post? It's too personal and people are prone to error.

I believe most people are good at heart and want the same thing, the end goal, which is what's best for our kids.

We can agree to disagree, but we don't have to be disagreeable. :-)

[Smartaleck]

Re:(2-24-98) -- A major study
Might want to use the most current stats unless you want to purposely mislead people?

Comparisons of the mathematics and science achievement of fourth-graders in 2003 are made among the 25 participating countries.

****In 2003, U.S. fourth-grade students exceeded the international averages in both mathematics and science.****

In mathematics, U.S. fourth-graders outperformed their peers in 13 of the other 24 participating countries, and, in science, outperformed their peers in 16 countries.

In 2003, fourth-graders in three countries-Chinese Taipei, Japan, and Singapore-outperformed U.S. fourth-graders in both mathematics and science, while students in 13 countries turned in lower average mathematics and science scores than U.S. students. Among the 13 countries in which students were outperformed by U.S. fourth-grade students, five countries are members of the OECD (Australia, Italy, New Zealand, Norway and Scotland), and three are English-speaking countries (Australia, New Zealand and Scotland).

In 2003, ****U.S. eighth-graders exceeded the international average in mathematics and science.**** U.S. eighth-graders outperformed their peers in 25 countries in mathematics and 32 countries in science.

Eighth-graders in the five Asian countries that outperformed U.S. eighth-graders in mathematics in 2003-Chinese Taipei, Hong Kong SAR, Japan, Korea, and Singapore-also outperformed U.S. eighth-graders in science in 2003, with eighth-graders in Estonia and Hungary performing better than U.S. students in mathematics and science as well.

For addtional information about Highlights From the Trends in International Mathematics and Science Study: TIMSS 2003
http://nces.ed.gov/pubsearch/pubsinfo.asp?pubid=2005005

[RavenATB]

"Re:(2-24-98) -- A major study
Might want to use the most current stats unless you want to purposely mislead people? "

The date of the study I posted was included...there was absolutely no intent to mislead.
When I cut and paste the entire article...including the date...it shows that I'm trying to make absolutely sure that even a moron can figure out what they're reading. I knew that the '03 results had been released in Dec 04. Those test scores aren't particularly impressive. Perhaps you're trying to make the point that while the US ranking isn't by any means great, that they've shown an upward trend...in this test cycle. Okay, fair enough. What we may have uncovered, here, is a set of differing standards, between you and your little "band of cheerleaders" and people like me. When US students are beaten in Math testing by kids from Singapore (99 points better), Latvia, Lithuania, The Russian Federation, Hungary, Cyprus, and the Republic of Moldovia...to name a few...I don't see that as cause to celebrate. As bad as middle of the pack sounds, it's even more distasteful when we remind ourselves of the only category where we lead the world in public education...THE MONEY WE SPEND! I was interested to see you try to make the claim that I'm trying to deceive...after I posted the entire article, including the date...but you posted only snips of the '03 report on Eighth Grade achievement. I'd like to encourage everyone who reads this to go to the TIMSS web site and read it all...everything. See how these kids stack up against kids from Malaysia, many of whom are attending schools where the floors are dirt. See how our kids stack up against the kids from Hungary, where a kids is as likely to go to school on a jackass as on a buss. Did you also know the TIMSS tested 12th Grade students, too? I think this next article is important, because the kids involved are out of public education now. They're among us as adults...voting, working, and raising children. This is what our public education system gave them: From: http://ustimss.msu.edu/ 1998 publication Michigan State University 455 Erickson Hall East Lansing, MI 48824-1034 Phone: (517) 353-7755 Fax: (517) 432-1727 National Center for Education Statistics Washington, D.C. National Science Foundation Washington, D.C. PRESS STATEMENT BY WILLIAM H. SCHMIDT U.S. TIMSS NATIONAL RESEARCH COORDINATOR MICHIGAN STATE UNIVERSITY Are There Surprises in the TIMSS Twelfth Grade Results? "There is something surprising about the mathematics and science achievement results for US high school seniors," said Dr. William H. Schmidt in discussing the recently released TIMSS (Third International Mathematics and Science Study) high school seniors' results. "What is surprising is not the profoundly disappointing results but rather failing to realize how predictable those results were given what we already knew. The mathematics and science performance of American high school seniors is neither unexpected nor unimportant." TIMSS released achievement results comparing general mathematics and science knowledge among typical graduating seniors in several countries. They also released results on more advanced, specialized achievement tests for graduating seniors studying physics or calculus (including Advanced Placement courses in one or both of those areas) and their counterparts in other countries. TIMSS showed very low results for US students compared to those in the other countries giving the tests, both for general knowledge by average graduating seniors and for advanced performance by seniors studying physics and calculus. A recent report, Facing the Consequences, from the US TIMSS Research Center suggested that these results were certainly to be expected. It pointed out that there was a consistent decline in our relative standing from fourth grade to eighth grade in both mathematics and science. Of the almost 40 topics examined in both mathematics and science, none showed improved standing relative to other TIMSS countries from fourth to eighth grade. Most topics showed a decline over the middle school years. Schmidt said, "It could hardly be a surprise to find this decline continuing on through high school. As we discussed in Facing the Consequences and in our earlier report A Splintered Vision, US curricula through eighth grade do not focus on any key topics or give them significantly more attention. Those curricula and our textbooks are highly repetitive and unchallenging in grade after grade of the middle school years. How could they provide a sound foundation on which to build during the high school years?" The middle school curricula in most TIMSS countries cover topics from algebra, geometry, physics and chemistry. For most US students these are first studied, if at all, in high school. Many students (about 15 percent) never study algebra, geometry (about 30 percent), advanced algebra (40 percent), other advanced mathematics (around 80 percent), chemistry (about 45 percent) or physics (almost 75 percent). Schmidt indicated, "US students frequently opt out of advanced study of mathematics and science in high school or are placed in less demanding courses even if they do continue to take mathematics and science courses. So high school mathematics and science is unlikely to overcome the poor foundation provided during US middle school education and reverse the downward trend in comparative performance for average students." The US is also selective about who takes what courses, especially in mathematics. We do this even before high school and are essentially unique among TIMSS countries in doing so. As early as middle school we offer different content to different groups of students. We presumably do this to improve our educational 'efficiency' and increase learning for all students or, at least, for the students in our most demanding courses. It doesn't work. Facing the Consequences used TIMSS results to examine these practices in some detail and found that they did little to help most students learn mathematics. The report also found that this practice contributed to exaggerating achievement differences among US students. The new twelfth grade results make it clear that tracking also fails to provide satisfactory achievement for either average or advanced students. That report suggests that tracking is not the only problem with the US approach to mathematics and science education. US science and mathematics curricula cover many topics but without devoting much time to any one topic. This makes it unsurprising that there appeared to be only very small differences in what had been learned by US fourth graders compared to third graders or by eighth graders compared to seventh graders. This was true for all mathematics and science topics examined. Schmidt said, "We have characterized US science and mathematics curricula as 'a mile wide and an inch deep.' We can hardly be surprised to find the achievement gains in all of those topics only an 'inch deep' as well." The US pattern of consistent small gains contrasts sharply with patterns in other TIMSS countries where in any single grade there are large gains for some topics and small gains in others. US high school seniors' performance on the TIMSS tests show that this approach of accumulating consistent small gains in the end does not result in overall gains as large as those attained by focusing on some topics for greater gains but changing the focus across the years of schooling. Schmidt suggested, "Surely these results must call into question the entire US approach to mathematics and science curricula across the grades." What about the US's better students? When asked, Schmidt replied, "For some time now, Americans have comforted themselves when confronted with bad news about their educational system by believing that our better students can compare with similar students in any country in the world. We have preferred not to believe that we were doing a consistently bad job. Instead, many have believed that the problem was all those 'other' students who do poorly in school and who we, unlike other countries, include in international tests. That simply isn't true. TIMSS has burst another myth - our best students in mathematics and science are simply not 'world class'. Even the very small percentage of students taking Advanced Placement courses are not among the world’s best." US students have been provided with weak foundations for studying advanced mathematics and science.. "Our high school specialists are ill prepared to gain the most from advanced study", Schmidt said. "A few grades of weak specialization in high school does not appear able to overcome the weak foundation we lay in earlier grades." How mathematics and science is arranged in courses also seems to be part of the problem. Better US students study physics in only one or two courses. This is very different from what the students study in the higher achieving countries where physics study begins during middle school and continues throughout high school. Better US mathematics students during high school years take separate courses in geometry, pre-calculus, etc. In most TIMSS countries, students take a course in mathematics -- a course which may include studying parts of advanced algebra, geometry, finite mathematics, and calculus at the same time. They may take such courses for several years. "What these results for US high school seniors make clear and what we tried to examine closely in Facing the Consequences," Schmidt said, "is that there is no one source of these problems and no one source for their solution. The problem is bigger. It is in our system, not any single part of it." "We can waste our time protesting each and every change. We can also waste our time thinking that any one change will solve all our problems. In either case, what we do is waste our time. US mathematics and science education has neither simple villains nor 'magic bullets' to cure our ills." "We've failed our tests. Do we want to fail our futures, too?" /////////////////////////////////////////////////////// The 12th graders who tested in this group are adults, on the street.

[Smartaleck]

"Okay, fair enough."

That's all I seek. Nice paragraphing by the way.

[esoxmagnum]

What all these articles and statistics point out, is that the current population of America is failing our own homegrown youth.

Now, from an economic standpoint, this is not the demise of America, but it is the demise of America as we know it. Because our Universities are the best in the world, we will still produce the best graduates and doctorates in the world.

There will be no shortage of people to fill the tech jobs and research jobs that are here in America. America will always be on the cutting edge of these jobs for one reason, capitalism. Unless of course, you consider that unions, lawsuits, and government regulatory commissions push these corporations out of America.

Assuming we are able to curb those elements that would push our jobs to foreign soil, we can ascertain that those graduating from American Universities will go where the money is. They probably won't want to go back to Asia to work for 3 bucks an hour, they will probably stay here, so long as our wages and stock option programs are competitive. A very fine line between paying wages and paying the government for strict OSHA compliances and federal oversight is what many companies walk.

The only question, is even though American capitalism will survive, and America itself will survive, will your grandchildren be those who are in the high paying jobs, or will they simply be the bus boys and fruit pickers of this global economy.

If we do not create an environment in which our high school graduates can compete in the sciences at the graduate level, we will soon see a revitalization of the industrial age. Though this would appear to be good news to some, rest assured that those manufacturing jobs will be filled by your grandchildren who will be working for foreigners, and getting paid minimum wage. The days of assembling vacuum cleaners for 28 dollars an hour are gone with the buggy whip.

While other countries are progressing, we are languishing in the arts. Other nations are laughing at us, even though our schools are boasting a better liberal arts program than that which is offered in the finest schools of Paris and Amsterdam.

And trust me on this one, other people of the world aren't as obsessed with their "feelings", as we are. All of those who are studying gobbledygook-psycho-babble, may as well plan on a future of flipping burgers, because the disciplined Asians aren't going to be flocking to your couch to complain about how they feel hurt because their dog doesn't love them. They'll just simply eat the dog and move on with life.

Your only hope is to become an artist, and produce bauble's to sell to our new invaders, much like they produce art in the port-of-call cities for the Virgin cruise lines.

All you art students take notice, pay attention to your next basket weaving or tribal art class, because you may be relying on that knowledge to get you and your future family through the rough times that are assuredly ahead, if changes are not made now.

There will only be so many football players, basketball players and rappers that we can export. After that, its all downhill.

[RavenATB]

"Okay, fair enough."

"That's all I seek. Nice paragraphing by the way."

Yes, well I don't exactly know what happened there. I had it paragraphed, then hit spell check, and after I'd spell checked it I added the sentence at the end.

Once I'd done that I went back to spell check and it came up unparagraphed in the block. I, not being a computer genius, figured once I hit "post" that it would return to the form I'd put it in originally.

I was wrong.

[RavenATB]

"Re:(2-24-98) -- A major study
Might want to use the most current stats unless you want to purposely mislead people? "

The date of the study I posted was included...there was absolutely no intent to mislead.

When I cut and paste the entire article...including the date...it shows that I'm trying to make absolutely sure that even a moron can figure out what they're reading.

I knew that the '03 results had been released in Dec 04. Those test scores aren't particularly impressive.

Perhaps you're trying to make the point that while the US ranking isn't by any means great, that they've shown an upward trend...in this test cycle. Okay, fair enough.

What we may have uncovered, here, is a set of differing standards, between you and your little "band of cheerleaders" and people like me.

When US students are beaten in Math testing by kids from Singapore (99 points better), Latvia, Lithuania, The Russian Federation, Hungary, Cyprus, and the Republic of Moldovia...to name a few...I don't see that as cause to celebrate.

As bad as middle of the pack sounds, it's even more distasteful when we remind ourselves of the only category where we lead the world in public education...THE MONEY WE SPEND!

I was interested to see you try to make the claim that I'm trying to deceive...after I posted the entire article, including the date...but you posted only snips of the '03 report on Eighth Grade achievement.

I'd like to encourage everyone who reads this to go to the TIMSS web site and read it all...everything.

See how these kids stack up against kids from Malaysia, many of whom are attending schools where the floors are dirt.

See how our kids stack up against the kids from Hungary, where a kids is as likely to go to school on a jackass as on a bus.

Did you also know the TIMSS tested 12th Grade students, too?

I think this next article is important, because the kids involved are out of public education now. They're among us as adults...voting, working, and raising children.

This is what our public education system gave them:

From: http://ustimss.msu.edu/
1998 publication
Michigan State University
455 Erickson Hall East Lansing, MI 48824-1034
Phone: (517) 353-7755
Fax: (517) 432-1727
National Center for Education Statistics Washington, D.C. National Science Foundation Washington, D.C.
PRESS STATEMENT BY WILLIAM H. SCHMIDT
U.S. TIMSS NATIONAL RESEARCH COORDINATOR
MICHIGAN STATE UNIVERSITY

Are There Surprises in the TIMSS Twelfth Grade Results?

"There is something surprising about the mathematics and science achievement results for US high school seniors," said Dr. William H. Schmidt in discussing the recently released TIMSS (Third International Mathematics and Science Study) high school seniors' results. "What is surprising is not the profoundly disappointing results but rather failing to realize how predictable those results were given what we already knew. The mathematics and science performance of American high school seniors is neither unexpected nor unimportant."

TIMSS released achievement results comparing general mathematics and science knowledge among typical graduating seniors in several countries. They also released results on more advanced, specialized achievement tests for graduating seniors studying physics or calculus (including Advanced Placement courses in one or both of those areas) and their counterparts in other countries.

TIMSS showed very low results for US students compared to those in the other countries giving the tests, both for general knowledge by average graduating seniors and for advanced performance by seniors studying physics and calculus.

A recent report, Facing the Consequences, from the US TIMSS Research Center suggested that these results were certainly to be expected. It pointed out that there was a consistent decline in our relative standing from fourth grade to eighth grade in both mathematics and science.

Of the almost 40 topics examined in both mathematics and science, none showed improved standing relative to other TIMSS countries from fourth to eighth grade. Most topics showed a decline over the middle school years.

Schmidt said, "It could hardly be a surprise to find this decline continuing on through high school. As we discussed in Facing the Consequences and in our earlier report A Splintered Vision, US curricula through eighth grade do not focus on any key topics or give them significantly more attention. Those curricula and our textbooks are highly repetitive and unchallenging in grade after grade of the middle school years. How could they provide a sound foundation on which to build during the high school years?"

The middle school curricula in most TIMSS countries cover topics from algebra, geometry, physics and chemistry. For most US students these are first studied, if at all, in high school.

Many students (about 15 percent) never study algebra, geometry (about 30 percent), advanced algebra (40 percent), other advanced mathematics (around 80 percent), chemistry (about 45 percent) or physics (almost 75 percent). Schmidt indicated, "US students frequently opt out of advanced study of mathematics and science in high school or are placed in less demanding courses even if they do continue to take mathematics and science courses. So high school mathematics and science is unlikely to overcome the poor foundation provided during US middle school education and reverse the downward trend in comparative performance for average students."

The US is also selective about who takes what courses, especially in mathematics. We do this even before high school and are essentially unique among TIMSS countries in doing so.

As early as middle school we offer different content to different groups of students. We presumably do this to improve our educational 'efficiency' and increase learning for all students or, at least, for the students in our most demanding courses. It doesn't work.

Facing the Consequences used TIMSS results to examine these practices in some detail and found that they did little to help most students learn mathematics. The report also found that this practice contributed to exaggerating achievement differences among US students.

The new twelfth grade results make it clear that tracking also fails to provide satisfactory achievement for either average or advanced students. That report suggests that tracking is not the only problem with the US approach to mathematics and science education.

US science and mathematics curricula cover many topics but without devoting much time to any one topic. This makes it unsurprising that there appeared to be only very small differences in what had been learned by US fourth graders compared to third graders or by eighth graders compared to seventh graders. This was true for all mathematics and science topics examined.

Schmidt said, "We have characterized US science and mathematics curricula as 'a mile wide and an inch deep.' We can hardly be surprised to find the achievement gains in all of those topics only an 'inch deep' as well." The US pattern of consistent small gains contrasts sharply with patterns in other TIMSS countries where in any single grade there are large gains for some topics and small gains in others.

US high school seniors' performance on the TIMSS tests show that this approach of accumulating consistent small gains in the end does not result in overall gains as large as those attained by focusing on some topics for greater gains but changing the focus across the years of schooling.

Schmidt suggested, "Surely these results must call into question the entire US approach to mathematics and science curricula across the grades." What about the US's better students?

When asked, Schmidt replied, "For some time now, Americans have comforted themselves when confronted with bad news about their educational system by believing that our better students can compare with similar students in any country in the world. We have preferred not to believe that we were doing a consistently bad job. Instead, many have believed that the problem was all those 'other' students who do poorly in school and who we, unlike other countries, include in international tests. That simply isn't true.

TIMSS has burst another myth - our best students in mathematics and science are simply not 'world class'. Even the very small percentage of students taking Advanced Placement courses are not among the world’s best."

US students have been provided with weak foundations for studying advanced mathematics and science.. "Our high school specialists are ill prepared to gain the most from advanced study", Schmidt said. "A few grades of weak specialization in high school does not appear able to overcome the weak foundation we lay in earlier grades." How mathematics and science is arranged in courses also seems to be part of the problem.

Better US students study physics in only one or two courses. This is very different from what the students study in the higher achieving countries where physics study begins during middle school and continues throughout high school. Better US mathematics students during high school years take separate courses in geometry, pre-calculus, etc.

In most TIMSS countries, students take a course in mathematics -- a course which may include studying parts of advanced algebra, geometry, finite mathematics, and calculus at the same time. They may take such courses for several years.

"What these results for US high school seniors make clear and what we tried to examine closely in Facing the Consequences," Schmidt said, "is that there is no one source of these problems and no one source for their solution. The problem is bigger. It is in our system, not any single part of it." "We can waste our time protesting each and every change. We can also waste our time thinking that any one change will solve all our problems. In either case, what we do is waste our time. US mathematics and science education has neither simple villains nor 'magic bullets' to cure our ills." "We've failed our tests. Do we want to fail our futures, too?"

/////////////////////////////////////////////////////// The 12th graders who tested in this group are adults, on the street. This is what our American public schools have become.

The mild improvement in the standing of 4th graders in the 2003 vs the 1999 tests may offer a seductive bit of home. But that improvement is tiny, and it's a single event, not a trend.

Unfortunately, US national test results, such as those we see with the SAT, don't give much hope that the 2003 TIMSS results are more than a "flash in the pan."

[RavenATB]

...seductive bit of "hope," not "home."

Sorry...

[thinkingman129]

Do you know the reason behind required school attendance? Federal government monies are tied to the number of days a student attends school. That's one of the reasons students are 'required' to attend a specific number of days.

The other reason is that, usually, the more days a student misses, the less he is probably learning. This would not apply to students who are going on a 'learning field trip' with their parent(s) to Washington, D.C. to tour our capitol, or investigating the science behind (and around) our national parks.

Most educators cannot recognize that there are capable parents who can instruct and share with their children while on a visit.

The parents who complain about this are not the parents who are incapable of instructing their children. Unfortunately, there are many, many parents today who are not (sadly) capable of instructing their children, nor are they able to discern bias or prejudice whether spoken or written. They don't know the value of the education their children are receiving in the schools, and cannot (or will not?) reinforce or bolster any additional learning at home.

Having been on both sides, it is a true dilemma.

Thank you for reading and commenting. I get a lot out of your posts, too!

[Scotsman will be Free]

I've read their posts in previous threads that are the same as this one. I read their posts prior to #700, and I do not recall addressing any of them to you. So, in the interests of keeping the peace, please place your unsolicited opinions where the sun doesn't shine. There you will find like minded, nosy, opinionated fools whose opinions stink like yours.
Have a nice day.

[Smartaleck]

"place your unsolicited opinions"

Twas your unsolicited opinion that inspired my reply. If you don't want others to join in, I suggest you take council in your own advice.

[TruthConquers]

Smartaleck is just that, a smartaleck.

He just shoots off one liners.

[moog]

Another reason not to put a government welfare program like vouchers into the private schools."

Touche

Shall we swordfight?:}

[moog]

With your comments, it is indeed apparent that you are a true conservative and a fine representative of it.

I can get scarcastic in my comments, but in this case I genuinely mean it.

[GOPrincess]

"What happens when a SAHM that homeschools gets sick? It's not that big a deal to me because I rarely get sick, and I'm not trying to use that as a justification for not homeschooling, I just never thought of it."

Getting extremely sick is very rare for me as well, but I've had a couple "sub-par" days where I had a fever or something. Much of the work my children can do independently. If I'm really unwell (or don't have a voice), I have them do everything they're able to do on their own, such as spelling work or the next math lesson (assuming it's not a totally new concept), and in some cases I have them work ahead on the independent work, then we catch up on "teacher time" as soon as I'm well (and skip the independent work that day). My older children are also very good about helping the next child down, for instance my 4th grader might read the 1st grader his History lesson and help him with the related activities. The children can also read, play educational computer games such as Math Blaster, work on their typing CD-Rom, listen to books on tape, or pull out something from our stack of educational DVDs and videos. Not that big of a deal. The one time a few years I was so dreadfully ill I couldn't even move, my husband stayed home -- ironically it was Christmas break! :) Hope this info helps.

[Coleus]

I think this is the thread where I thought you were a teacher... what happened to annyokie? one fight too many?

[Gabz]

I'm sorry if I ever said anything that gave the impression I was a teacher, I have all the respect in the world for them, but it was just never in the cards for me.

Neither annyokie or I are 100% sure of why she got kicked....but we do stay in touch, in fact we spoke on the phone just this afternoon.

We have also both scaled back our online time.

[Coleus]

I always liked her picture of the jersey shore on her homepage.