Don't help, Border Patrol says

www.azstarnet.com/Online service of The Arizona Daily Star ^ | 1/30/05 | AZ Ranger's Wifey

[shellshocked]

"Also, Nicley said the project's volunteers are not trained in law enforcement."

The sad thing is that cops get their powers from us, yet, they claim we don't understand those powers.

[F16Fighter]

"The vast majority of BP Agents do want then, it's mostly management that does not want them."

Thanks for weighing in on this question.

[AZ Rangers Wifey]

I suppose the Agents that I know personally are lying to me? I live here, they are part of my community (the Border Patrol Agents that work in this area). I have heard what they think about the Minuteman Project up close and personal.

I do not and never will agree that vigilantism is the way a problem should be solved. There are criminals involved in the Minuteman Organization. I can prove this. One of the Californians from this area who authored the Minuteman Project's SOP has been convicted of firearms charges. Do I consider the Minuteman Project a threat to our area? Yes, not only because they are not welcome, but because they will only give 30 days of untrained unsupervised "help" and then they will crow for the next 20 years about how they were here being good 'Mercans.

The environmental impact on the area is also a concern for me. Still I do believe if the Minuteman Project would send people to have a look at the area and make their best suggestions (to the officials in Washington that it could be a good thing for this area, minimal paramilitary participation) that would not be objectionable. That could be done without occupying our communities for 30 days with sidearms and camp shovels (which by the way will bend when you try to dig your “feces holes” in this hard pack ground).


Even the threat of the Minuteman Project has already caused stirrings of problems from the other side of the border. I am assuming that the Minuteman Project must desire a real battle when they arrive, and I would rather not see anymore Federal Agents have to die because of a group of unknowns (perhaps criminals) who have decided to take OUR lives in their incapable hands. This act of Civil Disobedience puts all of you right up there with the Black Panthers, the Arian Brotherhood and the KKK.


I may feel differently, and I may not feel so inclined to dispute this “movement”. Alas MY property will be in their line of fire, so I will continue to speak out against the Minuteman Project and all forms of vigilantism to solve a problem that all of these great 'Mercans/Liberal Anarchists who call themselves Minutemen have decided to poke their noses into. You think the Citizens here should have to be subjugated for you to exercise your rights to protest, but I think you will find we don't make good “subjects”. Sometimes we can be as ornery as the rattlesnakes that are protected by state law here. Do not kill the Rattlesnake, it’s protected in Arizona.


So it would be appreciated if some of you would weigh out of this situation before innocent people have to die. Does the Minuteman Project have any liability insurance or will we need to sue each of you individually, just curious. It’s always nice to start on rough drafts of the complaints in anticipation. I would hate to have to hire an extra clerk to handle all of the complaints of property damage or wrongful death and injury that will be exacerbated by the Minutemen’s presence down here.

I am not just weighing in, I am offering to assist the citizens of Cochise County in legal recourse against the Minuteman Project as any occasion to do so may arise (free).

If you come to Cochise County to cause trouble, trouble will follow you for the entirety of your occupation of our public lands, and may even follow you home.

[F16Fighter]

"I am assuming that the Minuteman Project must desire a real battle when they arrive, and I would rather not see anymore Federal Agents have to die because of a group of unknowns (perhaps criminals) who have decided to take OUR lives in their incapable hands. This act of Civil Disobedience puts all of you right up there with the Black Panthers, the Arian Brotherhood and the KKK."

As one who lives close to "Ground Zero" to the Minuteman Project, I read your response with an open mind and empathy...UNTIL I read your last charge which totally discredited ANY sincerity in the matter.

Since when has American Patriotism and the defense of our borders become equivocated to that of the deeds of murderous thugs? Your characterization is nothing but slander of the Minutemen and nothing but unsubstantiated, scurrilous lies.

Whom would you have compared Patrick Henry and Paul Revere to?? Attila the Hun?

You're not so much concerned for the NIMBY aspect of citizen BP, as much as spreading liberal propagandae.

[AZ Rangers Wifey]

It would seem that it's your opinion that when the Federal Government asks you to NOT help you still want to bully your way past them to do what YOU want. This is no great act of patriotism, our Federal Officials (the Law of this land) have requested that the Minutemen do not come to "help". When you insist on doing that which the Government has asked you NOT to do, then you are doing it for some self serving reason.

I simply do not believe that this whole ordeal is anything but the Liberals attempt to obfuscate the laws that we have in place and that are enforced by the Federal and Local Law Enforcement Agencies that already serve our area. If the Minutemen were true Patriots they would offer us the same 24 hour a day 7 day a week, EVERY single day of the year that the Border Agents who work here give.

I submit that the group was organized by Liberal Californians with an AGENDA. What gives anyone the right to inflict their paramilitary operations on someone's hometown (MY home)? Minutemen stay home, take your concerns to your elected officials (unless you are a raving Liberal who wants to create a climate of danger and further the hatred and violence along the border).

These are my opinions, and represent a growing number of the local citizenry in this County. We are not going to stand by while you tear up our home, would you stand by if we came to your home and caused trouble then ran back home breaking our arms patting ourselves on the back for the rest of our lives because we came to your home and conquered your local citizens and left our trash behind and defecated in shallow holes all over your parks and public lands (in public of course).

Before you say, that's an ugly pair of shoes on my feet, maybe you should walk a mile or two in them first. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you, this battle is not between you and the Mexicans or you and the people here, you will be battling the US Gov. We have the right to enjoy our homes, and the right to defend ourselves from a group of anarchists and vigilantes.

[F16Fighter]

"It would seem that it's your opinion that when the Federal Government asks you to NOT help you still want to bully your way past them to do what YOU want."

Because the Federal Government is embarrassed by their own lack of incompetence and proper enforcement of the borders is NO reason to deprive US citizens from defending themselves from an Illegal Invasion.

"I simply do not believe that this whole ordeal is anything but the Liberals attempt to obfuscate the laws that we have in place and that are enforced by the Federal and Local Law Enforcement Agencies that already serve our area. If the Minutemen were true Patriots they would offer us the same 24 hour a day 7 day a week, EVERY single day of the year that the Border Agents who work here give."

You couldn't be more wrong.

And it is the obligation of the U.S. Government to provide 24/7 protection and enforcement of the border.

They have failed to give the BP adequate resources, while the President has given the issue minimal priority. THIS is the fact of the matter.

"I submit that the group was organized by Liberal Californians with an AGENDA. What gives anyone the right to inflict their paramilitary operations on someone's hometown (MY home)?"

You're entitled to your own opinion, no matter how misguided it may be.

It appears because the matter is taking place in YOUR hometown, that IT is your overriding factor in demonizing and mischaracterizing the entire citizen-watch operation as "paramilitary."

"Would you stand by if we came to your home and caused trouble then ran back home breaking our arms patting ourselves on the back for the rest of our lives because we came to your home and conquered your local citizens and left our trash behind and defecated in shallow holes all over your parks and public lands (in public of course)."

And what kind of condition are the Mexicans leaving the border towns? In shamble from eyewitnesses. They aren't even "digging shallow holes."

"Before you say, that's an ugly pair of shoes on my feet, maybe you should walk a mile or two in them first. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you, this battle is not between you and the Mexicans or you and the people here, you will be battling the US Gov. We have the right to enjoy our homes, and the right to defend ourselves from a group of anarchists and vigilantes."

We have enough people at FR of whom know well what "this battle" is about, who is responsible, AND what is at stake.

It seems you are the one in support of "anarchy" and the illegal invasion from those who ignore and respect the border of these United States.

[JackelopeBreeder]

Amusing and clueless.

[AZ Rangers Wifey]

I have more of a clue than many of you know or want to believe. There may be some passive opposition by groups of the citizens who do not want to be invaded. At this point, I feel that I am willing to stay out of the way of the Border Patrol, and also out of the line of fire of the Mexican Border. If you think I am not being a good subject, then when you see what kind of danger our Border Agents face down here, perhaps you will appreciate them more.

We do protect ourselves and our homes from the illegals and we will use the same force to keep you from our properties. Our group considers the Minuteman Project to be a loosely organized group of domestic terrorists who insist on disobeying the Federal Government, and a group who present a clear and future danger for us and our properties in Cochise County, Arizona. You are not helping, you will be inflicting your presence on us. That's an invasion.


In my opinion the only clueless no, ludicrous and thoroughly deluded people involved in this discussion are the people who would consort with the Minutemen. We will fight you with all of the power that we have as United States Citizens who have the right to defend OUR own property.

You will find that we are seasoned at the battle with invaders, and most of us are armed and amazingly fearless. Do you think a person could live on this border and not have confrontations with all sorts of people?


I fear for my personal safety (and with the Minutemen's presence causing difficulties for the Federal and Local Officers in this area) it has become more of a concern. If the motion sensors on my own property alarm and I should have to call for help, it may be delayed because the Officers on duty are busy dealing with the Minutemen. When help is delayed in this remote area, it tends to make the residents here very nervous. These officers routinely check on my property, as I do live in a remote area.

I legally own weapons, and have Arizona's Concealed Carry Permit. Most of the residents out here are armed for their own protection, we are not giving aid to illegals nor do we want them either! I will even go so far as to say that it's an insult to the residents who have not invited you to come here to "presume" to do something to help us. We do not need or want your help.

There are already rumblings about the arrival of the Minutemen on the Mexican side of the border, you do not care for my life, so I suppose I should let you come and do whatever you want. If you go home in a box or wind up in one of Arizona's prisons or incur a legal liability because of your foolishness, then you only got a little bit of what you deserve for being clueless anti-American rebels yourselves.


I just keep going back to the issue that the Border Patrol has already said that they DO NOT want you to come down here to "help". For only 30 days? Why not make a real commitment and put your lives in the line of fire as you are insisting on putting my life and property?

A cache of weapons was seized on it's way to that drug cartel on the Mexican border recently. Take a wild guess who they will be shooting at in April? The Minutemen! It will be a relief to let them use your backsides for moving targets since you all are the ones who got them so stirred up. Maybe I should just put on my body armor and watch how fast you patriots run when they start shooting at you.


Remember Mr. Patriot, you cannot return fire from the American side of the border across into Mexico. If you do, you will be responsible for an International incident, and that could create a way for you to get some well deserved Prison time. I do not think the Minuteman Project belongs on Free Republic, they are obviously planning to disobey the US Government and perform an act of vigilantism.

[c-b 1]

I just keep going back to the issue that the Border Patrol has already said that they DO NOT want you to come down here to "help".

No, Michael Nicely said he didn't want anyone to come, Michael Nicely was the sector chief here before he was moved to Tucson. If Mr. Nicely told me the sky was blue, I would go look.

[AZ Rangers Wifey]

NONE of the Border Patrol Agents that I know want the Minuteman Project to come down here either, it is a very dangerous area. To illustrate my point about the problems in this area, here are links for all of you to consider. You may not even see us during your occupation, but one thing is becoming ever more obvious to those of us who know the climate in this region...the Mexicans know you are coming and they are going to be waiting.:

Story name: Police seize arms cache bound for drug cartel

If any of you want to be informed on some of the most recent Border News this publication is an excellent source, they have a special section on Border News with some of the most recent stories.

Link to this story and some recent official stories about the AZ/Mexico border.
http://www.azstarnet.com/sn/border/

Do not blindly follow the blind into this desert. The criminals on the other side of the border do not care who they kidnap, torture or murder. If the Minutemen have not told you this, then they are lying to you in the same way one of them lied to a Federal Agent about having a firearm. Pay attention "Mericans" this is danger that you could easily avoid, but if you do decide to come play junior border patrol (targets). Your blood will not be the first blood spilt on that desert. Make sure your life insurance is paid up so we don't have to support your families on Social Security and/or welfare. I do not think you will be able to collect any compensations from the US Gov. for any injury or death sustained in the course of your "duty" (as a Minuteman) since the Government's representatives have instructed you that your presence is not welcome in the area for the purpose for which you intend to come.

[BrianP]

I've talked to a lot of ground pounding agents in the last few day. Not one of them said that they wanted these civilian groups on the borders.

[humblegunner]

Also, Nicley said the project's volunteers are not trained in law enforcement.

I have no training in gravity either but I can catch a ball.

[L.N. Smithee]

How selfish and foolish is it to come to someone else's hometown with guns in your hands when the citizenry have told you that you are not welcome in that capacity!

So what is YOUR hometown going to do about OUR border?

[ATOMIC_PUNK]

Please bring the wife and kids with you there is some wonderful history in this area. Please take the time to know us before you stage an armed invasion into our communities.

Hmmmm last i knew the border belonged to all of us not just one community and i sure as heck am not going to bring my wife and kids to someplace you deem yourself and the border patrol deems unsafe

Your telling this to us why aren't you telling it to the illegals ?

[AZ Rangers Wifey]

"Your telling this to us why aren't you telling it to the illegals ?"

The answer to this question would be because I do not consort with illegals. When they come onto my property I call the Border Patrol, and take up a rifle. I do not confront them, unless I am forced to. I trust the Border Patrol and the Local Law Enforcement because I know they have been trained to work in this area. It is THEIR job to put their lives in harm's way for our country. The Minuteman group being in the area only means that they will be tying up valuable efforts and time of the Law Enforcement in our area. If a resident should need to call for help on our properties, there may not be an agent available because they are having to keep the Minutemen entertained and out of dangerous situations. How do the Minutemen know that the people who are signing up do not have drug smuggling motives or ideas about being able to help some of their terrorist friends into our country, (by distracting the Border Patrol agents)?

I will give you the bottom line, I have not seen any Homeland Security dossiers on any of the Minutemen, there is no such requirement mentioned on their web page. I do not know the 400 plus armed strangers who are threatening to come to my home in April. They are just recruiting whatever jumps up to say, "I wanna be good 'Mericans!"

Do you think that when Mohammad Atta filled in his request for a visa, that he listed the purpose of his visit as: "murdering as many infidels as possible"? I would be willing to bet that he did not mention that he was a terrorist, and how do we know that there are not some terrorist embedded in the Minuteman Project? I am certainly going to begin a petition to our elected officials to raise the security level on our border in April, and have The National Guard available if they should be needed.

Now another faction is weighing in on the presence of the Minutemen, and it puts my home in the line of fire. If the Minutemen cared about the residents out here, they would allow the Border Patrol and other qualified legal agencies to do their jobs without causing even more dissent on the Mexican side of the border.

I think it's a shame that the Minutemen will not direct their efforts into a trip to Washington DC or something else that would be appreciated, and helpful. I KNOW that one of the people mentioned on their web site has been CONVICTED of a firearms violation on FEDERAL land. How many more of the Minutemen are criminals, murderers, terrorists? Thanks but, no thanks.

The presence of the Minutemen in Cochise County is NOT welcomed by the majority of the citizens, I have a home in the area, my land is posted, and if any of you accidentally wander onto my land I will have you put into Cochise County Jail, now could I make my intentions any clearer? Do not come here for water, the phone or any other reason. I am friendly with Law Enforcement but not with any groups of armed vigilantes who try to usurp the power of the US Gov in my home county. I use a similar policy for all intruders (legal or illegal and I sure do not believe that all of the Minutemen are legal either, they may not be citizens due to Felony Convictions (like one of their Organizers from California who lied to Law Enforcement agents about a weapon he was secreting on Federal land). If the Border Patrol welcomes them, I will have to tolerate them but until they do, I will treat them as if they are an unknown illegals if they trespass on MY land in this desert.

I do, and I intend to continue to defend my property and myself. I will use whatever force is necessary to do so. (Alas Minutemen, I will not be looking for the white of your skin) when I decide whether you are a legal or an illegal invader on my property. NONE of you are welcome. The only exceptions would be if you are the Sheriff's Dept, The FBI, The BAG or Border Patrol Agents. When I know they are coming I will make them a pot of coffee or a tall cool glass of purified water. There are no such considerations for other uninvited legal or illegals

This is MY home you are talking about, sorry if I may seem hostile about a group that is increasing the danger near my home. If The Minutemen's Project endangers our homes, or the quality of our lives and properties or livestock, WE have the right (no, WE have the duty) to respond in a ways that you probably have not even considered, but we have.

[garybob]

How many more of the Minutemen are criminals, murderers, terrorists? Thanks but, no thanks.

I'm sure most of them are. And they are looking to invade your personal property, so you can have the pleasure of getting them locked up.

Not that many criminals, murderers and terrorists get involved in law enforcement...except in Arizona perhaps.

[JackelopeBreeder]

So what is YOUR hometown going to do about OUR border?

In the interests of Fairness&Balance, Cochise County is home to Civil Homeland Defense and American Border Patrol. Both groups have been doing exactly what MMP plans to do for a few years.

The MMP was originally designed to add manpower to CHD's ground patrols. At present it has 441 volunteers and 16 aircraft. (That number does not include many of the Cochise County residents who plan to participate.)

The plan is to simply go out and set up observation posts and some roving patrols along the illegal alien trails. When they find illegals, they call the Border Patrol and try to keep the illegals under observation until the BP arrives. If they get away, they get away.

Therein lies the rub. It isn't just a question of observation, but also of documentation. It's not so much about capturing illegals in the flesh as it is about captuing them on videotape. That is what has Mr. Nicley's panties in a wad. The MMP members will be carrying video cameras.

The government is always quick to trumpet its apprehension figures - just shy of 236,000 in Cochise County alone last year - but if you ask an Official Spokeshole how many got away, they mumble and change the subject. The most optimistic agents claim they catch about one in three. The answer I get from the working agents is usually one in five. The true number is something the government really doesn't want to become public knowledge.

The frosting on the cake is that the vast majority of the 236,000 caught were voluntarily deported back into Mexico under the ever popular "Catch & Release" policy and promptly jumped the fence again and got away safely that time. Or the next. Their trip was not canceled, just delayed. Same thing that happens to you and me at airports.

What do you imagine public reaction would be if the true scope of this problem were to suddenly take center stage? That possibility has some members of our government enjoying a prolonged Maalox moment.

The next 12 weeks should be highly amusing.

[ATOMIC_PUNK]

I will give you the bottom line, I have not seen any Homeland Security dossiers on any of the Minutemen, there is no such requirement mentioned on their web page. I do not know the 400 plus armed strangers who are threatening to come to my home in April. They are just recruiting whatever jumps up to say, "I wanna be good 'Mericans!"

Bottom line is Real "Mericans" as you call them are the ones who are gonna show up to defend our borders and while they are gone on their respected selfless mission to defend our country the illegals back around where these folks live are gonna still be here because law enforcment can't or won't do its job and arrest them and deport them as they should be why don't you invite these "Mericans" to your home find out what kind of people from all over America want to defend our borders instead of making them sound like their a bunch of hicks crawled out from caves.

Ive never seen a theif defend anything but what and how they stole something ive never seen derilects and scum defend anything but what they selfishly grab for themselves.

You maybe have a chance to see some of the real America in the eyes of those who prefer to defend it instead of just watch the invasion

I know one thing i would go if i could afford it and i could do it unarmed too ! you dont need to be armed to spot intruders i cant see just sleeping and letting them creep in its not in my nature to give the enemy the upper hand and the illegals are making and proving themselves enemys every day they break the law !

15 N. Koreans Nabbed Crossing U.S.-Mexico Border

[Cultural Jihad]

Our group considers the Minuteman Project to be a loosely organized group of domestic terrorists who insist on disobeying the Federal Government, and a group who present a clear and future danger for us and our properties in Cochise County, Arizona. You are not helping, you will be inflicting your presence on us. That's an invasion.

Well said. I remember that Ralph Nader and his Socialist Worker's Party cohort made illegal immigration a cornerstone of their campaign last year. Might have a lot of those types coming around in April. Then there's the small group of neo-Nazi StormFront racists which are very vocal against the BP and immigrants. By the way, when you notice those immigration Johnny-One-Notes here on FreeRepublic, they are all anti-Bush.

[JackelopeBreeder]

Not that many criminals, murderers and terrorists get involved in law enforcement...except in Arizona perhaps.

Actually it was somewhat fashionable here in Cochise County in the late 1800s.

I am still of the opinion that the county seat should be returned to Tombstone. Bisbee has become Haight-Ashbury East. It's probably the only place in the world where one can go for a "therapeutic massage" and have your aura purified at no extra charge.

Maybe I should run for Sheriff when Larry Dever decides to retire. In the meantime I'll just work to keep him elected.