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To: Right Wing Professor
Does the availability of energy ensure that order can increase within an open system? The answer to this last question is NO as you very well know. Read about laser cooling and get back to me.

Don't think that was quite fair, RWP--the question did say "ensure" and "can" ; and your hyperlink contains an example of energy (ordinary light) that decreases order by increasing heat. The use of the word 'can' in the question allowed for the possibility that entropy increase or decrease depending on the circumstances.

OTOH the reply (second sentence above) was a flat NO, so you were right to make the distinction.

Cheers!

1,116 posted on 02/01/2005 5:57:26 AM PST by grey_whiskers (The opinions are solely those of the author and are subject to change without notice.)
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To: grey_whiskers
Don't think that was quite fair, RWP--the question did say "ensure" and "can" ; and your hyperlink contains an example of energy (ordinary light) that decreases order by increasing heat.

Read it again. You can't cool something by transferring heat to it. The thermo books are quite definite on that. The light from a laser is most definitely not heat.

The question he asked was stupid in the first place. The availability of energy is not relevant; what is relevant is the quality of the energy, of which the temperature of the energy source is a measure. I pointed out this elementary principle to him, and he ignored it.

Here's a trivial example: the ice in the Greenland ice cap has a comparatively low entropy. Its original source was an ocean, where it had a much higher entropy. How was its entropy lowered? How was the increased order produced? Evaporation following by wind transport, both which processes are driven by heat from the sun; but more importantly, driven by heat applied at a high temperature in one location and removed at a lower temperature in another location.

I'm happy to dispel ignorance under any circumstances, but if one wants me to do it patiently and courteously, one needs to pay the appropriate tuition to the University of Nebraska at Lincoln. :-)

1,134 posted on 02/01/2005 7:51:21 AM PST by Right Wing Professor (Evolve or die!)
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