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To: risk
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable [inalienable] Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these Rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed...."

If you don't believe in God you, by definition, have no moral foundation, just a set of theories on social engineering and societies. I would NEVER vote for an atheist.
65 posted on 06/10/2004 4:37:06 AM PDT by johnb838 (When I hear "Allahu Akhbar" it means somebody is about to die.)
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To: johnb838
If you don't believe in God you, by definition, have no moral foundation, just a set of theories on social engineering and societies. I would NEVER vote for an atheist.

Well johnb838, (or should I call you Robert Byrd?) you are absolutely full of #!%&*#!.
There is no correlation between religion and morality whatsoever. Religions have had a basis of morality because it is part of what could be called Natural Law. Religion simply has reflected what is inate in all people.

You think that belief in God makes you moral..?!?
You think bin Laden is moral??
You think pedophile priests are moral??
You think Jim Baker is moral??
You think Bill Clinton with his oversized Bible is moral??

You think the Buddha Siddhartha Gautama, Lai Tzu, or Confucius had no moral foundation???
70 posted on 06/10/2004 4:52:20 AM PDT by counterpunch (<-CLICK HERE for my CARTOONS)
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To: johnb838

That last paragraph was only somewhat relevant to what you said before. I was saying that you weren't making any sense about the declaration of independence. Try putting a leash on a cat and see how he reacts. Love for freedom is inborn. God doesn't need you to believe in him in order for you to take your next breath. Some people describe their will to breathe as coming straight from God's purpose in their lives; some people aren't even interested in talking about that. Either way, they breathe. What the declaration of independence says about God helps convey the point that human dignity and the human desire for freedom come from that which is beyond us, somewhere inexplicable, something sacred. Some people believe that is the Trinity. Some people who signed that document were not the least bit concerned with naming God. Whether you'd vote for one of them is irrelevant.


75 posted on 06/10/2004 5:00:54 AM PDT by risk
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To: johnb838

I could vote for an atheist who recognizes that Christianity is the foundation of the country and that without Christianitythere is no foundation left. One can be an atheist and understand that morality and ethics comes from religion and in America, specifically from Christianity. Morality as an emotional foundation cannot come out of atheism. An atheist has to develop logical reasons to support his ideas of right conduct and atheists can differ very much on the most basic concepts, like protection of life. Christians have that argument as certain of them deviate from their foundation. Ultimately an atheist must reason from what is good for himself in his immediate situation. Judaism and Christianity are what made capitalism and complex trade possible because the religion provides an emotional foundation for trust. No other major religion provides that. Other people, the pagans of India, the Buddhists of East Asia and the Daoists and Confucians learn Trade and Capitalism by example of the successful Christian and Jewish merchants and factors.


91 posted on 06/10/2004 5:16:11 AM PDT by ThanhPhero (Ong la nguoi di hanh huong den La Vang)
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To: johnb838
If you don't believe in God you, by definition, have no moral foundation, just a set of theories on social engineering and societies.

You can have a moral foundation that has nothing to do with God. Japan, for example, is as close to an atheist society as you can think of and that society certainly has a moral foundation.

In any event, you're creating a false dichotomy. A religious moral foundation also contains many theories on social engineering and societies. Do you really think that Christianity, Judaism, Islam etc. don't engage in social engineering?

188 posted on 06/10/2004 7:49:45 AM PDT by Modernman (It's true hard work never killed anybody, but I figure, why take the chance? -Ronald Reagan)
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