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To: Modernman
God has blessed this country in times of need with the right leaders at the right time.

Explain 8 years of Clinton, then. No, we can't blame or praise God for the governments we get. At the end of the day, we are fully responsible for our leaders.

I disagree on a few levels, at least from a faith-based (Christian) perspective.

There are many references to the responsibility of not only choosing leaders, but of choosing good, upstanding, moral leaders. To those for whom the Bible is a reference, or is meaningful, look in Exodus, Judges, Proverbs, Romans, 1 Timothy, Hebrews,and 1 Peter. They say some very interesting things, such as:

---Leaders are to select qualified subordinate leaders, to help govern the people (Exodus);
---Sometimes, in judgment of Israel, God allowed bad leaders to overtake His people. Oppressed, the people would cry out to God, and He would send a righteous judge to conquer the evil force, and bring peace...at least until the judge died, and the people returned to wickedness (Judges);
---A verse in Proverbs says that the heart of the king is in the hands of the Lord, and that like a watercourse (river), He directs it;
---The Apostle Paul said that it is the duty of EVERYONE to submit to the governing authorities, because no authority existed that God didn't establish, and then he said it again for effect. He went on to say that those who rebel against such authority are actually rebelling against God Himself, inviting judgment on themselves (Romans 13:1-7)
---1 Timothy talks about prayer for, and submission to,all those in authority (Chapter 2);
---The unknown writer to the Hebrews said that we are to respect our leaders and to submit to their authority, and to do it so that the leaders' job would be a joy, not a burden (Hebrews 13);
---finally, the Apostle Peter talked about submission FOR THE LORD'S SAKE to every authority instituted among men--kings, governors...he also said that slaves (or currently translated, citizens, employees, et.al) should submit to their leaders with all respect, not only to those who are good and considerate, but also to those who are harsh (1 Peter 2).

While I could not more categorically disagree that we cannot praise God for our leaders, I do agree that we cannot blame God for our leaders. We are responsible for them, through the wonderful process known as elections.

For those who say that we the people have no voice, all you have to do is look at the California Governor recall. Popular liberal governor, just reelected, booted out of office a year later.

So that is my perspective from a faith-based (Christian) point of view. As for the atheist, God-hating view...well, I can't speak to either, because I am neither. IMHO, if you are an atheist or a (true-God)hater, you have much bigger problems than who wins in any election.

266 posted on 06/10/2004 9:39:57 AM PDT by Christian4Bush (I approve this message: character and integrity matter. Bush/Cheney for '04.)
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To: Christian4Bush
While I could not more categorically disagree that we cannot praise God for our leaders, I do agree that we cannot blame God for our leaders.

I think by praise, you mean something to the effect of"Thank God Bush is the president," which is a sentiment I certainly agree with.

However, if you mean we should praise God for installing Bush as the president, that's too close to the "Divine Right of Kings" for my tastes.

The examples you quote from the Bible seem to cover situations where the governments in question were some sort of dictatorship/theocracy/monarchy where the people were not free to replace their leaders, except perhaps with bloodshed. I don't think such examples apply to a country like the US. Since, at the end of the day, we have several ways of getting rid of bad leaders, whether through elections, recalls, impeachments etc. When confronted with a bad leader like Clinton, it is a cop-out to cry to God for a change- we have to create the change ourselves.

270 posted on 06/10/2004 9:49:52 AM PDT by Modernman (It's true hard work never killed anybody, but I figure, why take the chance? -Ronald Reagan)
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