[Check_Your_Premises]

Thoughts?

[wingster]

I'm starting to think we should have just gone over there, wiped out Saddam, wiped out Syria, wiped out Iran, wiped out a few other hot spots and then told the rest of the muslim world to go to hell since that's what they're creating world wide anyway only with them in charge of hell! Then bring our troops home and told them to do what they want, Saddam's been removed, if they want to put another brutal dictator in power, then they should feel free.

That solution handles the Mid East "balance of power", American Lives, and the terrorist solution all at once!

[tiamat]

Take heart.

This is not a conscripted military. They all want to be there, they all want to do their jobs and they all know the risks.

We have been on the ground for just over a year. We have 700 dead.

While that is NOT good, this is not nearly CLOSE to the number of guys killed per month in Veitnam, nor does it even approach 25 percent of the 3000 + Americans killed on a really bad day one Septmeber....


Keep in mind, we are dishing out way more than we are getting.

[abc1]

War is messy, always has been and this war was made on us (U.S.).
We merely responded to a thereat posed collectively by countries. These were tacit participants in the actions leading up this war. Pick an Arab country from Morroco to Pakistan and those governments either gave assistance or looked the other so as to feign ignorance of the obvious.

We can fight them there now, or here later.

I am afraid it is no longer up to us,
the situation was thrust upon us.

[Sunshine55]

Admit it, you watched Nightline last night and fell right into the trap.

[WOSG]

The article proves that indeed defeatism works.

Enough defeatism in the struggle, and the 'will to win' evaporates. As SunTzu says in "The Art of War" that is the matter of winning it. Our greatest enemy is the political forces that want to destroy our will to effect positive change. Mainly those forces dont WANT freedom.

My take on the big picture in Iraq, written April 9, 2004. Short-term things are looking bad, but actually most of these matters bode well for longer term.

http://freedomstruth.blogspot.com/2004_04_01_freedomstruth_archive.html#108140233888652252

Iraq - One Year After Liberation, waiting for Liberation
Past, present and future are always 3 different windows on each single event we experience. A prediction is different from a diary is different from a memoire. I am reminded of that on this the one year anniversary of the fall of Baghdad. The moment on April 9th was one of exhileration, at least for me. A long anticipated battle and the nervous reporting from the media did much to excite but little to inform. It was eerie how we went from fierce fighting to one sunday morning watching Greg Kelley march into Baghdad on an A-1 tank. The 24 hour cable news is always in the now, chewing through events until all details are exhausted. Always in the tree-level but never seeing the forest. The glimpse of liberation - the scenes of Iraqis beating saddam's head with a shoe - got quickly overtaken by looting, then this issue, then that, the political process. Events have rushed forward headlong in the past 12 months - history on steroids for Iraq. So the fall of Saddam statues becomes a bit forgotten in the rush of the "now".

From today's vantage, though, it is a different sense I look at last April, although we may discount the events of April 9 2003 a bit too much. For right now we are still in the tornado of events in the evolution of Iraq. We are still in the labor pains of a new Iraq, anticipating the outcome and hoping for success. Some who didnt want America to invade Iraq are wishing the project would fail, or expressing pessimism that shakes faith in the effort. Too many troops, too few; too soon with handover, too slow. Any decision made is second guessed to the n-th degree. Clearly, the Bush administration will not lose resolve or withdraw, but the nitpicking adds to confusion to the people watching events, so one loses perpective on what has been accomplished.

And with fighters willing to battle hardened US soldiers, one has to wonder what will happen next. As I learned from my stock trading days, the common error of most humans is straight line extrapolation. So it is bad now, they imagine it will stay bad. Wrong thinking. There are forces at play, like billiard balls on a table, and they are colliding and mixing in with other forces to shape events. I've explained the resistence in the previous post: It is real, it is a danger, but is wholly expected in the current environment. The only question is guaging its strength and how much it can derail the overall project, and based on that, how events will play out.

I was quite optimistic until recently that Iraq was going well and that there was no significant danger to the democratization of Iraq. But now, the dangers flushed out in the open, I have a different take. The long-term prospects are better for Iraq with the challenges being faced now, but the short-term dangers have heightened. The enemy has decided to take a stand now, and make a dice wrong. They have "called for division" - saying in effect "on our side or your side". The miscalculation is when you think you have everyone on your side but you really dont. It is almost certain that the miscalculation is on the part of Sadr and those wanting to oppose the coalition and occupation.

The majority of Iraqis are NOT on the side of the enemy, that is for sure. But if they are passive enough or intimidated enough, it can shake us off the path of political development, if events "spiral out of control". The good news - the best news - from this week has been those cases of Iraqis helping coalition. Civilians lending their cars to drive coalition soldiers to safety or carry injured to hospitals; Peshmerga helping fight some battles, Iraqi police helping in others. The worst news of course are the mob actions in Fallujah, a sign of the bad elements in control of the streets. The Marines promise that will soon change.

But of the current danger? This too shall pass, certainly. The smarter military analysts are talking about a 2-4 week period of clamping down on this. After that, further political evolution and jockeying. The bottom line is that the current threats of Sadr and Fallujah are not fundamental roadblocks, they are merely security issues (as long as they dont metasticize into something larger). The fundamental test and question is whether "the center will hold". That enough Iraqis will want a real western-style democracy enough to fend off a breaking up of the political stabilization. This current test may shock the political democrats in Iraq into stronger action to save their country from falling into the abyss. So the current danger of attacks is like a fever. Once it breaks the healing may be faster.

I dont believe the cries from idiots like Kennedy that this is Vietnam. He and his ilk are locked in the past and ignorant, willfully so, of the current situation. They want to believe the worst about America and build up tiny enemies like Sadr to be bigger than he is. Kennedy only emboldens the forces of violence in the mideast with his overheated and wholly inappropriate rhetoric. Kennedy promised thousands of body bags in the gulf war I, saying saddam's army was formidable, etc. He is wrong about almost everything.

So past, present and future collide in this anniversary. To look back and contemplate what was really gained last April, we have to look forward to the completion of this project of democracy in Iraq. Yes, Iraq was liberated from Saddam last April, and that alone is a great change. But the full libeation of Iraq will require the building of a new civil society, a free and democratic Iraq to replace the tyranny of Saddam. It hasnt happened yet; and it wont have any definite start date as it is an evolution. In the end, the makers of the legacy of Saddam's overthrow and the ones who will truly judge and live under the judgement will be the Iraqis themselves.

Here is my hope and my prediction: We will look back on the fall of Saddam on April 9 2003 as a very significant event. The beginning of the end of dictatorships in the Muslim world, and the beginning of a true democratic state of Iraq. A legacy and a gift from our fallen coalition soldiers. I am looking forward to future anniversaries.

[JulieRNR21]

I am starting to think going to Iraq was a mistake

That's just what the terrorists who are trying to thwart the June 30th transfer of power to the Iraqi people want you to think......Please stay strong, stay resolved, and support our Troops in the war on terrorism.

Always remember September Eleven!

[Prince Charles]

9-11 crystallized in the minds of many the belief that we would have to expend our national blood and treasure to kill our enemies. The only question was how it would be done: some would have waited until the battles had to be fought on U.S. soil, while the president and most thinking people chose to take the fight to the enemy's home turf.

Yes, I'm of the opinion that al Qaeda and Iraq were as close as hand in glove.

[trebb]

Sounds like the terrorists, Democrats, and the media (don't ask me why I bothered to list them separately) are starting to win a few converts. I'm sure glad the author isn't watching my back...

[Atlantic Friend]

The total number of US losses in Iraq is around 700. The total number of US losses in WW2 was 300,000 - and that's just for the European theater of operation. In WW2, the US army could have 700 KIA a DAY, not a YEAR.

While the US soldier is clearly every bit as good now as he was then, it certainly is the general public's acceptance of war casualties that's changed.

Plus, I don't think it does much good to anyone that so many people think US soldiers are invincible, that US war matériel just can't be destroyed, and that the whole Iraqi operation would be a walk in the park. The US soldiers are not demigods, they are human beings, and that's what makes them heroes.

While it is entirely normal that people are supportive and confident, a war is a place where planes and tanks are destroyed, and where soldiers die fiery deaths. Overconfidence is as great a danger for civilians as it is for soldiers, because it probably makes each casualty all the more insufferable. Hence reactions such as this one, probably.


This, and a little too optimistic view of the war in Iraq during its opening stages is probably the cause of such reactions.

[.cnI redruM]

So the question is if:
>>>>>1) we care more about the freedom of the Iraqi people than they do (something we could only have known in hindsight), and

That's an interesting assertion, backed by dubious data. In The American Revolution, significant numbers of American Colonists took up arms on behalf of the British Army and were organized into armed formations that were large enough to be logistically self-sufficient. Based on the premise you offer here, Jefferson, Franklin and Washington all three should have hung up their spikes, hired a good barrister and cut a good plea bargain.

>>>>>2)we are not willing to wage total war until all opposition is removed,

The student body of Oxford University demonstrated against British fighting against Hitler. Clearly the best and brightest of their day, these people had no clue why Churchill cared about a bunch of stupid Poles and went after the Germans. Clearly, the upper crust of Britain's intellectual elite wasn't in it to win it. Churchill obviously would ceded Europe to Fascism if he acted in accordance with your premises.


>>>>than how can we possibly win there?

By continuing to bring accurate direct fire on the enemy. The same way most people win most wars.

I've checked my premises and with all due respect, I prefer them to yours. Have a wonderful day.

[RobRoy]

Critical mass, for me, is 500k.

This is WWIV. It is a war against Islam. It will be longer than WWIII which we affectionatly called the "Cold War."

There will be lots more casualties the next 20 years.

So many watching this thing are like a child watching a chess master and viciously scrutinizing his sacrificing of a pawn. They're in way over their heads...

[nuconvert]

Look at the BIG Picture..............

[Redleg Duke]

Ah, the cry for instant gratification.

War isn't a video game and it isn't a 30 minute drama. Be greatful you weren't born in the 20s. You couldn't have handled WWII.

[Bloody Sam Roberts]

Res Firma Mitescera Nescit.

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(Once You Get It Up - Keep It Up!)

[CyberCowboy777]

"critical mass"?

Thankfully you had no command and control during WWII. Pearl Harbor would have both got us into the war and got us out - on the same day.

[Moleman]

Interesting perspective, I also have been feeling this way relative to your following quote
No American should be expected to die defending the home of another not willing to do the same.
This is what pisses me off, the Iraqis dont seem to be willing to stand up for themselves.

[vandykelastone]

Call Airbag America; they will be so glad to hear from you.

[nuconvert]

Here's a fast moving thread..................

care to get on board?

[ChipShot]

We are in day three of a 30 year war. We just do not know yet how well or how badly it is going.

I know one thing. I would rather we fight them there, than here.

Buck up, it is going to be a long pull with lots of ups and downs.

[#1CTYankee]

History repeats itself, Our soldiers will be victorious as they were in Germany after the "War".

The Werwolf is thought to have had about 5,000 members. Both the British and Americans were attacked by them. Major John Poston, who had been with Field Marshal Montgomery in the desert, in Sicily and in northwest Europe, and served as a liaison officer for the field marshal, was ambushed in his jeep and killed. On 24th March, 1945, the Lord Mayor of Aachen was assassinated by Werewolf agents. He was not the only US appointed official to die at the hands of the partisans, but he was the most important. The Commander of the 3rd Armored Division, General Maurice Rose, was allegedly assassinated by Werewolf agents in Padeborn.

Radio Werwolf bragged that "the arm of the National Socialist Party was long and that its agents, the Werwolf, were vigilant, ruthless killers." The radio station broadcast a call to arms claiming itself to be the organization of National Socialist Freedom Fighters. The radio station vowed that the Werwolf would never bow to the enemy and would employ every means to damage the enemy. Perhaps more important, the radio station told the German people that the Werwolf was employing its own judicial system to decide the life and death of German traitors.