Marines Want Their .45s Back

StrategyPage.com ^ | April 23, 2004

[Cannoneer No. 4]

April 23, 2004: The U.S. Marine Corps is looking for a new .45 caliber (11.4mm) pistol. While the American military retired the M1911 .45 caliber in 1985, some commando units still prefer it. This is because the 11.4mm (.45 caliber) bullet weighs twice as much as the 9mm one that replaced it and still has an edge in "stopping" someone hit with it. But the 9mm M9 pistol magazine carries 15 rounds, versus seven in the M1911. The commandos (Special Forces, SEALs, Marine Force Recon) counter that their operations are the type where every round counts, and the fewer you have to fire the better. For the regular troops, the M9 has been popular, and successful. The 9mm weapon is lighter, has less recoil and has the extra ammo for users who are not sharpshooters.

The Marines want to buy 1,100 new .45 caliber pistols and are having a competition to determine which of several models available will get the $1.9 million contract. The Marines have been using M1911s rebuilt from the many old ones turned in when everyone switched to the M9. But even this supply is running out, and it is known that there are newer .45 caliber designs out there that are more reliable, lighter, easier to repair and more accurate. Some Marines (and other troops) buy these newer .45 caliber weapons with their own money. Most American combat units tolerate troops bringing in some additional weapons, especially pistols. Some troops have been buying 10mm pistols, seeing this as a nice cross between the lighter weight of the M9 (2.55 pounds versus three for the .45) and the greater stopping power of the 11.4mm M1911 bullet. But there are new .45 models that weigh as much as the M9, carry more bullets (10) and are easier to repair than the M1911.

Afghanistan also raised the issue of stopping power once more, when individual troops went into caves or other tight places, where only a pistol could be used. In these cases, every shot counted, and the guy firing larger (like 11.4mm instead of 9mm) bullets was more likely to win. But most troops agree that any arguments over pistols is minor compared to issues involving all the other more frequently used weapons and bits of equipment. Nevertheless, there's something about pistols…

[ExSoldier]

I've got a brand spankin' new Springfield Armory "micro" that is just jamming like crazy! It chambers the first round and jams almost every round thereafter. It might fire twice and jam. Put it this way I have thus far gone through 100rds and not gone through a complete magazine once. It has jammed with the mags that came with it; with the Chip McCormick "Shooting Stars" I got and with my std size Wilson mags (which have never given me troubles). I'm going to try and run another 100rds thru the piece. The feedramp has already had a throat and bevel on the feedramp. I'm afraid that it might be my shooting style. Although I have never had any problems with any 45 this is my first "micro." It's got a 22 pound recoil spring.

The type of "jam" might be informational to those here: What happens is that the slide fails to go all the way to the rear and extract the fired case. At the same time another "live" round attempts to feed. I have to drop the mag to get the bottom round out and then work the slide to get the fired case out.

Just in case, does anybody know anything about the reliability and accuracy of the EAA "Witness" Steel Compact in .45? I can afford that but not some of the "high falutin" 1911 clones like the new Sig GSR or the ParaOrd. I especially can't afford something like a P245 Sig! I'm just a high school teacher of American Government. If the micro doesn't work, I can probably trade it for the EAA.

[archy]

How about the Archy/cavtrooper21/anyone else that's flattened a bad guy with a 45 test?
It's not very scientific, and very biased.

In the event of my having shot anyone with anything else, I'm certainly willing to pop them a couple more times with a .45 as a test of further bullet expansion/penetration with new rounds. But I don't think that'd be very scientific insofar as stopping effect goes, and I doubt I ever amass enough personal examples fro a genuine statistical study.

I know someone who came pretty close, however. He favored the .41 magnum over all others, but sometimes carried other tools when he thought it appropriate. But if he saw something rough ahead, it'd be a S&W M57 or M58 on his belt.

[Constitutional Patriot]

Has anyone seen the new Sig service .45? I hear it runs for about $1,100. I have to break it (gently) to my wife that my collection will require this one too...

[cavtrooper21]

I've read some things about the .41 and a buddy uses one for deer hunting.
He swears by it, claims it's the best all-around pistol round out there (for a revolver).
He's been working me pretty hard the last two years to pick one up. I've been playing hard to get but with all the OT thats been coming my way I may just give in and get one.
He thinks the S&Ws are the best. Any thoughts?

[Long Cut]

Unfortunately, he's just transferred to Jacksonville. We'll probably meet up for a day's shooting at our favorite indoor range when I'm home on leave next August.

His mags are 7-rounders that came with the gun, and one 8-shot McCormick PowerMag. I always thought that a light mag spring would jam the LAST round, not the first(second). Seems the pressure on the first couple of rounds would always be the strongest.

[Long Cut]

From everything I've seen, Springfields need about 300 rounds through them, plus a couple of good cleanings before they "break in" well enough to become reliable. They're machined fairly tightly at the start.

Kimbers don't seem to have the same issues, I don't know how they got around it.

Put a couple hundred more rounds of hardball through yours. If it still jams a lot, call Sringfield. Their customer service is quite good.

[Siamese Princess]

Well, I guess that's one way to get the lights turned down to get a little practice in for low-light confrontations....

The club would prefer that they use the light switches!

[AnAmericanMother]

We've got a S&W Model 57 .41 Mag with the 6 inch barrel.

It's a great revolver. Accurate, recoil's not bad considering, never a minute's worth of trouble with it for any reason. My husband uses it for metallic silhouette.

I much prefer it to the .44 Mag, which I consider just too much recoil for ANYbody. I put about 20 rounds through a friend's .44 and had to stop -- the darned cylinder release actually BROKE OFF from the recoil, and the shattered remains cut about a 2" gash in the inside of my thumb. The recoil's so bad, I didn't notice until my friend said, "Hey! You're bleeding all over my pistol!"

That really was enough for me. (I've still got the scar.)

[LibKill]

Amongst my arms I have a Browning High-Power (9mm) in a collector's variation. I've shot the heck out of it and it is reliable in function.

I also have a .45, designed by the same Sage Browning. Also reliable in function.

I keep the 9 because I like it and it is a collector's item.

I keep the .45 because it will do the job.

[cavtrooper21]

I'm not recoil sensitive, you have to have a central nervous system for that (according to my wife...) but .44 mags have never been my favorite.
Did own a Blackhawk 6 in. in .44 for a while, but traded it for my 686 .357.
Wife really liked "her" new gun.
I'll keep the S&W 57 in mind.

[AnAmericanMother]

LOL on the CNS! (I've been told I have the sensitivity of a cast-iron boiler - and I did do natural childbirth with no particular distress)

I have a couple of revolvers, but I still like my 1911A1 and my Combat Commander the best. I have a .38 Super on a 1911A1 frame and a Lightweight Commander as well.

I know a revolver is the "original point and click interface," and very reliable, but the Colt autos are natural pointers for me and fit my hand perfectly (I have Pachmayer grips on all of them). I don't have a particularly small hand, but revolvers just hit me wrong, especially with the rubber grips, and I don't feel as comfortable with them as the .45s.

I guess it's just a case of "to each his own, as the lady said when she kissed the cow." :-D

[archy]

I've read some things about the .41 and a buddy uses one for deer hunting.
He swears by it, claims it's the best all-around pistol round out there (for a revolver).
He's been working me pretty hard the last two years to pick one up. I've been playing hard to get but with all the OT thats been coming my way I may just give in and get one.
He thinks the S&Ws are the best. Any thoughts?

He's got a point about the S&Ws, but the Dan Wesson 741 is also very worthy of consideration, expecially if you like the idea of interchangable barrels- I'd be very happy with the 4-inch and 8-inch numbers, but bet I'd probably collect a few others as they came along at a right price, too. Likewise the possibility of multiple or custom grips with the Danny gives you decisions, decisions, decisions.

The three I owned were all fixed-sight Model 58s all with 4-inch barrels. I put maybe a box each of 50 of the hot *bearkiller* loads between the three, which I carried for just that purpose, and had two or three speedloaders worth, plus one unbroken box. The *light* loads, which to me felt right between a hot loaded .45 ACP and a .44 Special, were quite suitable for most of my other purposes. Two of the three were quite okay in the accuracy department but I had to learn where the loads printed with each; the sights of the third were exactly on, and I really really should have hung onto it, though it went to a friend who'll let me use it when I'm in his neighborhood, and he keeps a few other goodies on hand for me for my use if I'm around, so it's not a total loss.

It might also be worth your while to look at the .41 mag version of the Desert Eagle- I had one of the .357s for a while, and always figured the .41 would have been ideal. Of the calibers then available for the big N-frame S&W, the .41 was my choice if a 4-inch barrel was to be used; the .357 really required at least 6 inches worth, and the 8 3/8-inch version of the .44 Magnum was the way to go, IMHO. The .45 Auto-Rim versions were just fine in the GI 5½ M1917 offering, or trimmed to a round butt K-frame configuration with the barrel cut back to a bit obver 3 inches.

But a Model 57 or 58 is a really supreme piece of work, with the adjustable sights of the 57 being the way to go if you want to play with multiple handloads [or .40 S&W or 10mm in full-moon clips] and the fixed-sight 58 if you want hammer-like reliability and servicability. I'd pick a good holster I favoured [Dillon has a sweet deal on a nice one] pick ammo and HKS speedloaders [or magazines, if you go for the D.E.] as it comes along, and watch for a bargain or swell deal, then grab it. But they're like peanuts, pretzels and good potato chips: once you've nibbled on one, you may find them fair addictive....

[archy]

Well, I guess that's one way to get the lights turned down to get a little practice in for low-light confrontations....

The club would prefer that they use the light switches!

Makes a heck of a TV remote, too....

[Cannoneer No. 4]

When the name on the slide is SIGARMS, you know this is no ordinary production 1911. SIGARMS called on the expertise of an IPSC World Champion and a team of the most talented designers around to create a 1911 that would be at home in the SIGARMS family. With stainless steel components, internal safety features, a custom trigger and dehorned frame and slide, the GSR is unique in the world of 1911s. The impeccable fit and finish is a result of lapping and fitting all components by hand. Our team balanced tight fit, accuracy and reliability to produce a pistol that's as close as you can get to a custom-built gun. Like all of our guns, the GSR is built to perform, passing a torture test of 10,000 rounds without a single failure. The result is the new Granite Series Rail.

[Squantos]

Thats the spring per my experiences . Tell him to try that before he goes the warranty & hammer monkey money route. I swap mine out every 5000 rounds and have never had a hiccup since starting that PMI ritual.

Stay safe !

[AnAmericanMother]

When the name on the slide is SIGARMS, you know this is no ordinary production 1911.

Uh-oh. Wonder if I can convince my husband that we need one?

[dansangel]

Prohibition against ankle holsters in Atlanta?

FP - is that true? It was my understanding that was rescinded a while back.

[Shooter 2.5]

Go get a brand new mainspring 18#

I think you mean the recoil spring. The mainspring is the one in the mainspring housing that provides the tension for the hammer.

[FreedomPoster]

I'm not familiar with any details on that one. I'm not sure why you couldn't.

From:
http://www.packing.org/state/index.jsp/georgiav

We have this text from the GA code:
the pistol, revolver, or firearm may only be carried in a shoulder holster, waist belt holster, any other holster, hipgrip, or any other similar device, in which event the weapon may be concealed by the person´s clothing, or a handbag, purse, attache case, briefcase, or other closed container. Carrying on the person in a concealed manner other than as provided in this subsection shall not be permitted and shall be a violation of this Code section.

An ankle holster would seem to be covered under "any other holster".

[tet68]

What happens is that the slide fails to go all the way to the rear and extract the fired case.

My first guess would be the spring.

Also you might lap the slide with some Flitz (it is non abrasive ), the
combination of friction and a powerful spring might
be letting the slide start to return too soon.

I looked at the micros but just couldn't get a grip with
them.