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To: 4ConservativeJustices
What country was sovereign to the Pope?

The current U.S. ambassador to the Vatican is Jim Nicholson. Archbishop Gabriel Montalvo is the Vatican's ambassador (Apostolic Nuncio) to the United States.

Did any nation send ambassadors to the Vatican in 1861? I don't believe it was thought of as a "country" in 1861, that only came after 1927. It could not "recognize" another state in 1861 could it?

570 posted on 11/17/2003 8:42:43 PM PST by FreedomCalls (It's the "Statue of Liberty," not the "Statue of Security.")
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To: FreedomCalls; 4ConservativeJustices
LINK

The Holy See and the Vatican City

Because the Roman Catholic Church has elected to participate in the United Nations as the “Holy See,” it is important to understand the historical origins of this entity and its current relationship to the Vatican City.

The “Holy See” is “the supreme organ of government of the [Catholic] Church,” with the Pope designated as its head in the Code of Canon Law. The Holy See consists of the Pope, the College of Cardinals, and the central departments that govern the Church. It is, by definition, a non-territorial religious entity. Prior to 1870, the Holy See was associated with the government of the Papal States, which had been created by Pepin-le-Bref and his son Charlemagne in the Ninth Century. In 1870, Italian troops annexed the Papal States and granted freedom to the Apostolic Palaces in Rome. The Lateran Agreement of 1929, signed by Italy and the Holy See, finally settled that Rome was under the jurisdiction of Italy, while the State of the Vatican City remained under the “sovereignty of the Supreme Pontiff.”

* * *

Status at the United Nations

In 1944, the Roman Catholic Church made tentative inquiries regarding the eligibility of the Vatican City to become a member state of the United Nations. Although the United Nations does not provide the international community with a definition of the term “state,” it does have requisite conditions for admission as a member. An applicant to the United Nations must: (1) be a State; (2) be peace-loving; (3) accept the obligations of the United Nations Charter; (4) be able to carry out these obligations; and (5) be willing to do so. Although the historical record is scant, there is some indication that member states viewed the Vatican City as being ineligible for United Nations membership. For example, United States Secretary of State Cordell Hull, in his reply to Vatican inquiries regarding possible membership, concluded that the Vatican City did not meet the requirements for admission. Article 24 of the Lateran Agreement binds the Holy See and the Vatican City to neutrality, and this policy of neutrality is regarded as incompatible with membership. In fact, the Vatican City has never made a formal membership application.

The Roman Catholic Church first officially participated at the United Nations when the Vatican City was invited to United Nations conferences through its membership in the Universal Postal Union and the International Telecommunication Union. In 1957, through an exchange of letters, the Holy See and the Secretary--General of the United Nations agreed to refer to the Papal delegation at the United Nations as the “Holy See.” Finally, on March 21, 1964, Pope Paul VI established the first Holy See “permanent observer” mission at the United Nations. As a result, the Holy See is regarded as a “non--member state” permanent observer. Switzerland is the only other entity that currently maintains non--member state permanent observer status.

The status of a permanent observer places restrictions upon an entity’s role at the United Nations, and these limitations generally vary according to the type of permanent observer status. There are no provisions in either the United Nations Charter or the Rules of Procedure of the Economic and Social Council (“ECOSOC”) that specifically refer to the participation of non--United Nations members in ECOSOC meetings. However, non-member state observers have been invited to participate in meetings discussing matters of concern to those states. Since the Holy See is a permanent observer, it cannot cast a vote in the General Assembly of the United Nations. But permanent observers have sometimes participated, on an ad hoc basis, in General Assembly discussions and decisions. The Holy See has participated in the General Assembly on several occasions. Pope Paul VI addressed that body on October 4, 1965, and Pope John Paul II did so on October 2, 1979. In 1978, the Permanent Observer for the Holy See addressed the Tenth Special Session of the General Assembly Devoted to Disarmament.

* * *

Status under International Law

The international legal status of the Holy See has been subject to scrutiny ever since it lost control over a specific territory. After the annexation of the Papal States by Italy in 1870, the Pope continued to conclude agreements with some nations and to accredit and receive envoys. In 1929, with the creation of the Vatican City, the Holy See once again became associated with the government of a territory. But this territory can be regarded as an artificial construct that provided the Holy See with some claim to territorial integrity. While most international legal scholars would grant that the Holy See may possess “a degree of international personality,” there is considerable debate as to whether such personality amounts to statehood.

Even without an exhaustive review of international legal definitions of statehood, there are indications that the Holy See does not meet these criteria. According to the Montevideo Convention on the Rights and Duties of States: “The state as a person of international law should possess the following qualifications: a) a permanent population; b) a defined territory; c) government; and d) capacity to enter into relations with the other states.” These four factual criteria for determining statehood are founded upon principles that have been accepted by a host of international law scholars and are consistent with the foreign laws of some nations. The Holy See does not satisfy this definition. Almost by definition, it does not possess a defined territory Because the Holy See is the supreme organ of government for Catholics worldwide, it cannot be said to have a “permanent population.” Finally, the Holy See is itself the government of both the Roman Catholic Church and the Vatican City It cannot therefore be regarded as an entity that possesses a government. The only characteristic of a modern state that is attributable to the Holy See is its capacity to enter into relations with other states. The Holy See is party to international treaties and it, rather than the Vatican City, receives foreign envoys.

It is equally uncertain whether the Vatican City satisfies the modern definition of a nation. Although it has a permanent population, a defined territory, and a government, the Vatican City’s capacity to enter into relations with other states is difficult to assess. The Vatican City has no foreign service of its own and no foreign ministry distinct from that of the Holy See. Article 3 of the Constituent Laws of the Vatican City reserves “to the Sovereign Pontiff, by means of the State Secretariat, . . . the right of representation of the Vatican State, with foreign powers, for the conclusion of treaties and for diplomatic relations.” A state wishing to enter into official relations only with the Vatican City would have to deal first with the Holy See. There also appears to be no diplomatic mission accredited to the Pope solely in his capacity as a temporal sovereign of the Vatican City Yet, at the same time, the Vatican City is a party to some international and bilateral agreements.

573 posted on 11/18/2003 12:39:10 AM PST by nolu chan
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To: FreedomCalls
Did any nation send ambassadors to the Vatican in 1861? I don't believe it was thought of as a "country" in 1861, that only came after 1927. It could not "recognize" another state in 1861 could it?

From the Political Graveyard:

U.S. Diplomatic chiefs of mission to Vatican City

Jacob L. Martin (Charge d'Affaires to the Papal States 1848) Lewis Cass, Jr. (Charge d'Affaires to the Papal States 1849-54) Lewis Cass, Jr. (Minister to the Papal States 1854-58) John P. Stockton (Minister to the Papal States 1858-61) Alexander W. Randall (Minister to the Papal States 1861-63) Richard Milford Blatchford (Minister to the Papal States 1862) Rufus King (Minister to the Papal States 1863) D. Maitland Armstrong (Charge d'Affaires to the Papal States 1869) Harold H. Tittmann, Jr. (Charge d'Affaires to the Vatican 1941-44) William A. Wilson (Ambassador to the Vatican 1984-86) Frank Shakespeare (Ambassador to the Vatican 1986-89) Thomas Patrick Melady (Ambassador to the Vatican 1989-93) Raymond L. Flynn (Ambassador to the Vatican 1993-97) Corinne C. Boggs (Ambassador to the Vatican 1997-) James Nicholson (Ambassador to the Vatican 2001)

579 posted on 11/18/2003 5:26:56 AM PST by 4CJ (Come along chihuahua, I want to hear you say yo quiero taco bell. - Nolu Chan, 28 Jul 2003)
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