Lord of the Rings Discussion Group (The Green Dragon Inn)

[HairOfTheDog]

Welcome to The Green Dragon Inn

Approaching The Green Dragon Inn
Hobbiton, in The Shire

The Road goes ever on and on
Down from the door where it began.
Now far ahead the Road has gone,
And I must follow, if I can,
Pursuing it with eager feet,
Until it joins some larger way
Where many paths and errands meet.
And wither then? I cannot say.
- JRR Tolkien

Politics also goes ever on and on.
This is a place for FReeper Tolkien fans to come and take a break from the impure reality of conservative activism and relax a little with a great story. We (the other co-conspirators and I) would like to study together the writings of Tolkien, beginning together, and discussing as we go through The Lord of the Rings together.

This is a chapter discussion, roughly one chapter per week, with the discussion mostly centered on the books, though of course the movie will be contrasted and compared, and perhaps used to illustrate another interpretation of the story.

When we are ready to move on, someone from the group (maybe me) will ping The Green Dragon List to the new Chapter, but we will continue this one thread until it becomes too cumbersome…. Let me know if you would like to be on - or off - this list. I will for now serve as the Thain of the list.

If you are joining late, jump right in, but please stick to the chapter currently being discussed.

Some have loved this story a long time, and some are newly discovering it. If you fit either category, we invite you to join in, but we would like this thread to stay mostly focused on the chapter at hand and keep moving, but at a pace everyone can keep up with… No jumping ahead, and no lagging behind! If you have other news to report or wish to discuss something Tolkien in more general terms… May we recommend the equally homey Hobbit Hole where my co-conspirators and I frequently have plenty of good talk.

One other request…. This thread will get long. In recognition that images slow down the thread for many and take up bandwidth, let’s keep the posting of images to a minimum on this thread. If there is a great illustration you wish to share, let’s try to use links instead of images wherever possible.

So lets read, listen and become inspired by the many aspects of The Lord of the Rings that touch us deeply and reconnect us to the values we aspire to. Many great discussions have already been had, and I hope that this thread will produce even more. Many FReepers have wonderful things to say about LoTR, whether the fantasy reconnects them with their faith, with their relationships with friends and family, or simply illustrates the splendor of great acts of heroism and sacrifice in the constant battle of virtue versus corruption.

Though it is a work of fiction, we believe the inspiration to be gained can only help us in our larger political goals: to guard and defend our freedom, our culture and our political ideals. May the fellowship and insight gained from this discussion help us to work through the issues that are the basis for our many shared ideals.

Besides, we Tolkien fans* need something to keep us busy during the next two years of waiting for the next two films. If you do not enjoy this story, then please simply leave us be.

*Also known as Geeky Hobbity Weirdos, obsessive fanatics, you name it, we have heard it and we see these names as compliments. In other words: don’t act like a troll, or we will distract you with our endless babble until the morning sun turns you to stone.

[HairOfTheDog]

Does Frodo underestimate Sam's depth or devotion in the beginning? hmmm... I am thinking so. Or he feels like the is the only one who understands the full impact, and thinks the others are more unaware than they are. He thinks at this point he has been successful in shielding his friends from the truth. He still thinks it is possible to slip away and leave them safely unaware and unaffected by this thing. He still thinks they are naively following along. He doesn't know yet that they DO understand, and are willing to follow anyway. He underestimates all of them.

We are certainly given more clues as to Frodo's depth of understanding because we get more of his unspoken thoughts...

Random thought I had the other day. Sam is the only one of the hobbits who even has a job. The others in the group do not work, presumably because they have inherited the all the comforts of life... More subtle clues that Sam is working class, the others are not.

[HairOfTheDog]

Reminds me of growing up in a small town

The equal suspicions each village has about the "queerness" of the others "outside" is there to remind us all of the error of many preconceived biases and prejudices we are raised with, is it not?

[Overtaxed]

Except for us, of course. Both of those other towns have gone to the dogs with their strip malls and such! :)

[HairOfTheDog]

Of course! Except for my biases and prejudices, which are, of course, right on target!

[Overtaxed]

Hehehehe! (It's always good to laugh at oneself once in a while.)

[Monkey Face]

I PROMISED I'd be good! Don't MAKE me get ugly! :-)

[BibChr]

I quite agree. I've seen FOTR eleven times, and I remain overall astonished at it. I still get tears running down my cheeks just at how well Jackson brought so many aspects to the screen.

Another example would be Sauron. I've said this elsewhere, but -- when I first heard Sauron would be shown onscreen, I thought, "Big mistake." One of the remarkable aspects of Sauron in the trilogy is that while (A) he is the gigantic, awful, terror-inspiring and looming enemy all through the books, (B) he is never seen! And so I apply Stephen King's Big Bug principle. The monster bug you see is always less scary than the monster bug you don't see -- because your imagination supplies details that make it personally frightening to you, which might be shut out once you actually see something.

And so a Sauron seen would necessarily be less menacing than a Sauron unseen. See? (c8

But at first view, I saw I was dead-wrong, and Jackson had somehow beaten the odds and made a Sauron who somehow was at the same time seen and not-seen. Yes, he is a gigantic, looming figure. But that isn't what you see, when he really strides forth. What you see (and this is brilliant; the Bible does the same thing) is the reaction of others. You see fierce warrior Elrond literally do a slack-jawed double-take, in the middle of a battle-stroke. You see a group of warriors stagger back together before this massive figure. And then the strikes, sending broken bodies flying over the heads of the army....

So it's a Sauron whom you see, yet at the same time you know he's much more than what you see.

Well, don't get me started. I think Jackson is simply a genius. I am in awe of what he's accomplished. I have my quibbles, but compared with Jackson's successes in bringing alive this wonderful story, they're relatively petty.

Dan

[Monkey Face]

Hey, HOTDog! I don't mind being left at the Inn TOO much -- just make sure I have plenty of pints by the fire, a good book (something by Tolkien, I think!) and the promise of good company later on...

Now that NASCAR has officially started, and the choppers to and from the track are no longer flying over my house, I may be able to talk coherently. Maybe.

So where were we...?

[sweetliberty]

I quite agree about complaints being fairly petty. It was a monumental undertaking and I will be sorely diappointed if it doesn't walk away with most, if not all of the academy awards for which it was nominated.

I also agreee about Sauron. There is the ever-present sense that he is not bound to a particular form but is in essence a "shapeshifter" who can take whatever form is most expedient to his purpose in a given setting.

[Monkey Face]

And doesn't that hold true with all forms of evil? They seem to be dressed in "innocence". As Sam said of Strider, "He would seem fair and be foul," rather than the other way around.

[Guenevere]

I am a new fan!!---Please add me to your Ping List :)

[sweetliberty]

Well, that too is Scriptural..."Satan himself comes as an angel of light."

[Monkey Face]

Yah, but Sam's statement is a lot easier to understand. Him being "working class" and all, he would have an "earthier" handle on it. If you get my meanin'.

[Guenevere]

I'm just jumping in new here....and maybe someone else has made mention of this....

...but impressed with your ELEVEN times seeing this movie.....

...one of the scariest scenes I thought was at the beginning when the four hobbits were on the road & Frodo sensed danger.....

..and he alerted them to run into the bushes.....

..and when the evil presence arrived on it's horse, the atmosphere was so charged with the most oppresive, overwhelming horror.....

..and then that spider, then scorpion, then all the ugly worms started crawling out over the boys.

No one in my group interpreted it the way I did.....

...but I saw it as evil personified and so near, that the horrible, ugly creatures that stay hidden were fleeing away from it?

Does that make sense?

Did you know Tolkien & CS Lewis were friends, and taught at the same university?

[Overtaxed]

That's the way I interpreted it. They have to be awfully nasty for the creepy crawlies to flee them!

[Monkey Face]

You need to come here more often, relax, have a pint, put your feet up on the fender, and enjoy the company of good friends with a common goal -- Tolkien's mind.

[Guenevere]

#676...LOL, I'd like that, but make mine a mug of hot chocolate :)

[Monkey Face]

In THIS place, you can have whatever you choose, as long as you don't disdain us for being "Hobbity Folk." We are all residents of Middle Earth, and as such, we accept newcomers the way we want to be accepted.

Welcome!

[Vast Buffalo Wing Conspiracy]

Random thought I had the other day. Sam is the only one of the hobbits who even has a job. The others in the group do not work, presumably because they have inherited the all the comforts of life... More subtle clues that Sam is working class, the others are not.

Entirely correct, although the class divide for the rural hobbits is nowhere near as great as that of Tolkien's England - they have no feudal system and laws are customary, rather than enforced by a lord or a state. In English class terms, Bilbo and Frodo are "lords of the manor"; the hobbits of Bagshot Row are the Baggins' tenants. These hobbits work for a living and pay rent. Bilbo & Frodo are Hamfast & Samwise's employers as well as land lords.

The Bagginses are rich enough to live off of their savings and their rents. The Tooks and Brandybucks are also important families; at the time the story begins, Merry and Pippin are too young to come into any kind of inheritence, but they probably don't have much actual work to do, apart with helping out their families with whatever work is required to manage the family estates. And when they return, they fall right into leadership roles within their family clans and within the regions of the Shire dominated by their families. Sam is unusual in that he moves up, socially, by inheriting Bag End from Frodo.

[Guenevere]

OK :)